BGZ throws?

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Re: BGZ throws?

Postby everything on Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:10 pm

I think that generalization is meant to contrast mainly with xingyi (more stereotypically linear, more straight forward, spear-like) and taijiquan (more back and forth, lead to emptiness first, then follow again forward type movement) if you consider the "big 3" all together. If this stereotype isn't so true, it'd be great to hear about it. I guess at "high level" you'd be good at all 3 and the "synergy" of all 3. Also, to hear more about Yin style would be great, too.
Last edited by everything on Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BGZ throws?

Postby Bao on Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:18 pm

everything wrote:I think that generalization is meant to contrast mainly with xingyi (more stereotypically linear, more straight forward, spear-like) and taijiquan (more back and forth, lead to emptiness first, then follow again forward type movement) if you consider the "big 3" all together. If this stereotype isn't so true, it'd be great to hear about it. I guess at "high level" you'd be good at all 3 and the "synergy" of all 3.


I don't like this kind of generalisations. They mostly lead to misunderstandings. For sure, there are common and popular perceptions about the arts of IMA. But that doesn't make the beliefs more true.

No I don't agree with the stereotypes. Some even very close schools and lineages of the same style can have apparently so opposite philosophies that one might think that they were completely different arts. But there are some ideas, some basic concepts and principles that tie Tai Chi together, other ones that tie Bagua together and others that tie Xingyi together. If you cut everything off that is not these basic ideas, you have something that unify a single art and make them different from the others. But if you donate understand the basic concepts and ideas by practice and doing, any kind of understanding would useless intellectual junk. Separating, contrasting? To what use?

Also, to hear more about Yin style would be great, too.

You can search Youtube for Xie Peiqi, He Jinbao and He Jinghan. I think that you must remember a whole lot of discussions about these people. So you can search the RSF as well.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BGZ throws?

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:33 pm

Bao wrote:
marvin8 wrote:.

Excerpt from AN INTRODUCTION TO BA GUA ZHANG, http://www.shenwu.com/bagua.htm:
Tim Cartmell wrote:Basically, Ba Gua Zhang fighting theory advocates the complete avoidance of opposing power with power and adopts a kind of guerilla warfare mentality. The Ba Gua Zhang fighter continuously seeks to avoid the apex of the opponent's force and attacks or counterattacks from the opponent's weak angles. By circling around and circumventing incoming force and resistance, the Ba Gua Zhang fighter applies his own whole body power from a position of superiority


Quite generalized and simplified. What is said here is only true of one of several strategies found in different Bagua styles. For instance, in Yin-branches, the stylist is more prone to strike, or in other ways go, right against the opponents strength while maintaining a superior structure.

That may be. However, your statement regarding "Yin-branches" seem to be "quite limited and simplified." "The stylist is more prone to strike, or in other ways go, right against the opponents strength while maintaining a superior structure" is only one strategy, per He Jinbao.

Excerpt from https://www.facebook.com/Baguazhangman1 ... 3960299588:
He Jinbao notes that many kinds of forms have been created from the characters or attacking methods, but he stresses that above all, the forms of Yin Style Baguazhang are used for fighting.

From this standpoint, he says the forms can be grouped into basic categories that pertain to the moment actual contact is established with one’s opponent.

“The first kind,” he says,“we call a forcing entry. In this case, you could say, you yourself are primary. You are going according to your own plan, your own will. This is exemplified by the Lion - a lot of its forms and technique are of this mode.

“The forms of the Unicorn are characteristic of the second category. The opponent is primary. Of greatest importance is going with and transforming (the opponent’s force). These measures are shown very clearly through stepping, movement of the body, and the manner in which hand techniques themselves change from one to another.”

These two large divisions of forms increase versatility as they are combined with various stepping patterns.

Combining Techniques
He Jinbao says that within each form there are at least three combined hand techniques, and it is these very combinations which constitute a form. He says that some forms are interlocked for developing continuity, and some utilize hand techniques to enrich body skills.

But even when a form’s inherent purpose is known, it is not a static, inflexible construct. The forms of Yin Style Baguazhang contain but seven movements, yet they serve as a portal into a universe of possibilities.

“Once you’ve practiced to the point that you are very familiar with the form you can combine the techniques any way you want,” says He. . . .

Strategies
Fighting strategies and methods for applying force are the most tangible purposes of Yin Style Bagua’s forms - the countless contingencies of combat fall within their purview.

“You have forms for the idea of attacking;” says He. “forms for withdrawing; forms that dodge to a certain direction; force to a certain direction; forms that exert a rising force; others are lowering or heavy; others for transforming; we have the methods of snatching victory from defeat, and reversing the body; opening techniques; closing off techniques....“

Most importantly, says He, is to use techniques that one is “comfortable with, familiar with,”by definition the very techniques one ends up practicing most.

Contained within the forms are baiting methods to draw a response from one’s opponent so that a place on his body is vulnerable to attack. He says there are additional techniques that cause the opponent to “fall into emptiness”.
“I will bait you and cause you to lose your center,” says He.

Once the opponent is baited him into emptiness,”You want to strike him where he is exposed. In the midst of striking him you have to pay attention to what is open on yourself. Awareness of emptiness will help you be more complete, full, perfect in your practice of these forms. . . .”


Published on Jul 6, 2016
At the Yin Style Bagua, London Combatives Training Intensive. Using an opponent's resistance force to set up takedowns:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POhp0EOK4VA
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Re: BGZ throws?

Postby Bao on Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:39 pm

That may be. However, your statement regarding "Yin-branches" seem to be "quite limited and simplified." "The stylist is more prone to strike, or in other ways go, right against the opponents strength while maintaining a superior structure" is only one strategy, per He Jinbao
.

I wrote "For instance, in Yin-branches, the stylist is more prone to strike, or in other ways go, right against the opponents strength while maintaining a superior structure."

I know that there are many different strategies in He Jinbaos branch. I didn't say one branch or his branch, I used plural. But also I didn't say all. It's you who generalize it into one single school. Also I didn't mention strategies or theories, I said what they usually do, or prefer to do. For Yin bagua, my experience, first and second hand experience (though not very vast), says that many stylists of different Yin branches prefer to attack straight on with a superior structure, instead of what Cartmell expressed as standard. If you understand the learning steps in Yin branches (though they can be very, very different), for instance what is common in He Jinbao's school, I think you can figure out the logic behind this reasoning.
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Re: BGZ throws?

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:29 pm

Bao wrote:
That may be. However, your statement regarding "Yin-branches" seem to be "quite limited and simplified." "The stylist is more prone to strike, or in other ways go, right against the opponents strength while maintaining a superior structure" is only one strategy, per He Jinbao
.

I wrote "For instance, in Yin-branches, the stylist is more prone to strike, or in other ways go, right against the opponents strength while maintaining a superior structure."

I know that there are many different strategies in He Jinbaos branch. I didn't say one branch or his branch, I used plural. But also I didn't say all. It's you who generalize it into one single school.

Where did I generalize? I never made a statement on what Bagua is or this is good Bagua, etc. I only posted two videos and stated why I posted them. Tim Cartmell made a general statement on Bagua. I understand there may be differences between schools.

Thanks for bringing up the example, as I reread some of He Jinbao's articles.
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Re: BGZ throws?

Postby everything on Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:23 pm

shawnsegler wrote:


Really like this one. Couldn't quite hear what he said about watching out for rear naked choke. Will have to watch it again.
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