Wang Shu Jin Taiji + Applications for the form

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Re: Wang Shu Jin Taiji + Applications for the form

Postby Bao on Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:10 am

I-mon wrote:Here's Su Dong Chen showing some nice "low-level" applications:
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2W2tW1M9gA


Didn't like no.3. That's just slapping hands. He is not grounded and it looks stressed.

(Edit: Solely meant from a Tai Chi perspective. Otherwise, I like much of what he does.)
Last edited by Bao on Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wang Shu Jin Taiji + Applications for the form

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:51 pm

Bao wrote:
I-mon wrote:Here's Su Dong Chen showing some nice "low-level" applications:
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2W2tW1M9gA


Didn't like no.3. That's just slapping hands. He is not grounded and it looks stressed.


Although Su and Luo Dexiu are both from the Yizong school, I've always preferred Luo's method. Su seems to have taken his IMA to a more external direction.
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Re: Wang Shu Jin Taiji + Applications for the form

Postby I-mon on Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:12 pm

I like to see what different experienced practitioners choose to focus on. One of the things I like about both Su and Luo is that they are experienced and accomplished internal practitioners, but neither of them seems to have any problem with using external skills when it's simpler, or just when they feel like it. A lot of taiji people in particular seem to act as though any use of brute force or simple leverage is beneath them. My Daito Ryu teachers always used to say that the most basic level was jujutsu, using leverage and strength, which was what you should use when dealing with any opponent who was weaker or less skilled than yourself. Take their centre, manipulate or break their joints, hit them. Just get in there and fuck their shit up, no need for fancy stuff. The next two levels of practice, aiki-jujutsu and aiki-no-jutsu which use the much harder-to-develop spiral power, whole body connection and sensitivity, were what you need to succeed against opponents who were stronger than you or who also had decent skills in jujutsu.

Anyway I appreciate all of the comments, I've got more experience in xingyi and bagua and xinyiliuhequan, and in jujutsu, than I do in taiji, so I'm always happy to be able to converse on these topics with guys who have 30+ years experience in these arts. Cheers!

Anyone got any favourite videos showing applications for peng lu ji an or the eight energies?
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Re: Wang Shu Jin Taiji + Applications for the form

Postby Brinkman on Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:42 pm

Fubo,
in regard to your question about Hung’s son, Ahan. I think the answer is yes. Driving the knee over the foot would be typical for a someone like him, who has been practicing the CPL form for at least 40 years. But I would qualify that by saying, he most likely has many versions of this same form. The particular large frame, low basin, break the rules rendition he demonstrates does have a place from a cultivation standpoint… but that’s for another discussion.



Simon, when I practiced Xingyi with the Hung family many years ago, Hung taught a short form of CPL, mainly because he considered the “yaobai” shenfa of Taiji an important cross training aspect for both Xingyi and Bagua. They (Xingyi and Bagua) generally lack the same degree of (yao bai) swaying body mechanics, so he considered it a good way to supplement the body mechanics of the half step and moving step power and as another method of propagating a core spinal wave.

Every one of my CPL teachers also practiced Bagua and Xingyi, and I think, in general the group of people being discussed are probably better known for, and were originally well versed in Xingyi and Bagua. Not to mention, Wang Shu-jin, and Chen Pan-lIng were also both Xingyi and Bagua adepts as well. Ask most of these people where the power comes from and they will point directly to the body wave Shenfa produced by the stepping method. In that regard, both Xingyi and Bagua spend an enormous amount of time cultivating their brand of mobility. Spending so much time on creating half step and the moving step power, when faced with training Taiji then, these same folks are looking to master what they consider the core shenfa derived from its stepping methods.. So while Taiji’s half step and moving step is generally speaking, not very well developed, its characteristic (yao-bai) is. There is hence a lot of stress upon improving upon the functional range of motion produced within the (yao-bai) body wave. Some would say “train big in order to improve small power”.

The CPL form does train both half step and moving step but it has to be dug out of the form. So, there is emphasis by some teachers to develop Taiji shoufa using both a half step and moving step mechanics, as well as mastering the functional range of yao bai motion.

There are some other salient points but I only have access to a cell phone size key board at this time..
Last edited by Brinkman on Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wang Shu Jin Taiji + Applications for the form

Postby shawnsegler on Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:32 am

Anyone got any favourite videos showing applications for peng lu ji an


https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-San-Shou-Fighting-Bagua/dp/B0085358IS

:)

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Re: Wang Shu Jin Taiji + Applications for the form

Postby Formosa Neijia on Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:00 pm

I keep reading comments that the apps shown in the initial clip are "low-level," "unelightening," and "karate-like." Nothing could be further from the truth. What he's showing you are really the keys to unlock all the applications of the form. Once you understand what he's showing, you can find your own, nearly endless apps throughout the form.

ALL of the apps he's showing depend on internal mechanics and principles. Is the pichuan he's showing completely devoid of internal principles and mechanics? Are there not higher ways of using it that aren't immediate obvious to normal people? If the answer is yes, then how is there not depth there to plumb?

The CPL form is a mix of three styles of taiji plus xingyi and bagua (and some might even add shaolin). It is meant to be taken in two ways: at a basic level it's an introduction to all those styles and at an advanced level it's a capstone/"greatest hits" version that takes important elements of all of them and shows you how they blend together. In between those extremes is a lot of leeway for people to play with and develop, hence some people doing more bagua-ish versions, some emphasizing large-frame for power and waist-turning, others making the moves more like xingyi (like the apps shown in the first post), etc.

Unless someone actually practices the CPL taiji (and Marcus is the only one I can see in this thread that does) then you won't really understand what the form brings to the table and what that initial clip is trying to show.
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Re: Wang Shu Jin Taiji + Applications for the form

Postby Fubo on Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:36 pm

Brinkman wrote:Fubo,
in regard to your question about Hung’s son, Ahan. I think the answer is yes. Driving the knee over the foot would be typical for a someone like him, who has been practicing the CPL form for at least 40 years. But I would qualify that by saying, he most likely has many versions of this same form. The particular large frame, low basin, break the rules rendition he demonstrates does have a place from a cultivation standpoint… but that’s for another..


Thanks for your response. What is the purpose of the knee going Over the toes? Is it more personal preference or something more specific hes developing? Thanks
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Re: Wang Shu Jin Taiji + Applications for the form

Postby Brinkman on Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:40 pm

Fubo,

I would agree that as a standard, for beginners, the knee should not go beyond the front perimeter of the foot. However, I would say, that is only a standard postural adjustment imparted for teaching a standardized version of any Taiji form. Admonishments such as, not too high, not too low, not too open, not too closed, long, short, etc.. are all adjustments meant to help the novice locate the taiji center, its a standard admonishment to address the postural integration process inherent within all of the internal martial art variants. On the other hand, while the knees of the average non Asian are often plagued with structural disadvantages, it is probably a wise rule to keep in mind for liability purposes. Also, if one is not comfortable with the mobility of a moving step and half step body method there may be no perception of what martial benefits lie in exceeding the boundary of the front foot, nor would one bother cultivating it for health reasons. Like Bagua’s “mud field step” for instance, or Xingyi’s “half step” which often trains a scissoring attack to the opponent’s front leg, which requires one’s knee to actually touch the ground, in a deep kneeling fashion, as you are probably familiar with.

The guy (Ah han) demonstrating the form is at least 65 years old, going on 70.. Breaking the rules in such an explicit way at that age is also a way of demonstrating your cultivation prowess. The joints in question that might be damaged by breaking the rules are still working fine, in his case. Nonetheless, if one doesn’t first cultivate a standard frame, then breaking the rules for longer a range of movement is probably just “bad posture”.
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Re: Wang Shu Jin Taiji + Applications for the form

Postby Fubo on Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:29 pm

Thank you for your response.
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