Wang Shu Jin Taiji + Applications for the form

[I-mon]

Funnily enough I was also studying Guang Ping while I lived in Tokyo with a different teacher (needless to say I didn't get particularly far into anything "internal" back then, I was 20 years old and just getting started, trying to learn everything at once). The 60/40 stance in the Guang Ping was very open almost like an asymmetrical horse stance kind of like Chen style, whereas in the CPL taiji form it was presented as being like San ti shi.

[cloudz]

The basis part I find a bit confusing though. Did you finish brush knee in that stance for example?
can you point this basis out in the WSJ performances in the old clips of him. Just seems a bit curious is all.
generally speaking, apart from Hongs (Chen) practical method, taiji transitions between rear and front weighted, regardles of whatever the split might or might not be.
I just don't know what using a 60/40 rear weighted stance as a basis would look like when applied to a taiji form.
Yes there are front weighted bow stances, but I wouldn't go so far as saying they are a basis.

[wayne hansen]

I've been having this argument with CMC people for years
You can't lift a foot with thirty percent weight on it
I think it is a misunderstanding of at what point you deliver your blow
You can do 6/4 or 3/7 in a static posture but not while moving and shifting weigh

[I-mon]

You're both right of course. I guess I mean that they used the 60/40 back weighted stance as the "reference point" of each "posture", like the position in which you'd take the photo to mark "single whip" or whichever position you're in. So approximately 60/40 slightly back weighted rather than the more usual 70/30 front weighted "bow stance". If you still don't know what I mean I'm not sure how else to describe it. In motion there was still the back and forth weight shift, but in say brush knee for example, the weight would only shift forward onto the front leg when the time came to lift the back leg and step forward with it.

Anyway I'm not here trying to say that it was correct, or the best way to do it or anything, it was just a notable difference in the way they taught the form compared to most other taiji that I'd seen.

[wayne hansen]

I understand exactly what you mean but as there are no static postures in tai chi so it is not possible.
Even in the yang the blow is delivered around 50/50

[Bao]

I understand exactly what you mean but as there are no static postures in tai chi so it is not possible.
Even in the yang the blow is delivered around 50/50

Mmm... True. The impact or meeting point with the surface to be destroyed happens in the shift from one leg to another, or from one posture to another. That is in a place in between postures, I.e. around 50/50 weight distribution. Then the movement/blow continues beyond this point.

[Brinkman]

As I see it, the many manifestations or various presentations of Chen Pan-ling Taiji.. have to do with its origin as a synthetic style, or inherent “three in one” concept ”. Beyond that, the variants passed down, including the Wang Shu-Jin lineage and CPL’s son…often takes on the flavor of the practitioner’s particular background.. .., most of the people I’ve met who practice CPL often have an earlier background in another Taiji variant or (internal) martial art . So there are some who practice it with a large frame and emphasis on projecting the spine vertically, while others use a slight diagonal lean.. small frame, large frame , upper middle and lower basin…some who fajin or others who carry the jin and don’t issue.. There is also a contingency who tend to emphasize (more or less) the reeling silk aspect or rather the rise, fall, drill, overturn throughout the form. .. In Taiwan besides Wang shujin there were others like Hung Yixiang, Su Dongchen and Luo Deshou who have practiced it.

I don’t think there is any particular inherent genius to the form outside of the conceptual format of combining the characteristics of Yang, Wu and Chen into a synthesized variant. Yet in most cases, the various CPL teachers in Taiwan are not specifically aware of how to differentiate the three. Nor will you find a wide interest in its martial value beyond the norm. That being said, you have to find people who understand the concepts and can demonstrate the differences and have a fondness for the martial quality.

Its frame was touted to possess fixed step, half step and moving step versions, so it is an easy fit for Xingyi and Bagua practitioners. .

At the end of the day, its form by form sequence is identical to Yang ..yet provides a format to break down the applications and body structure according to a wider conceptual framework.

...as a sub style it is probably not (as) bogged down with its loyalty to lineage or allegiance to style idiosyncrasies. The four or five teachers of CPL I’ve had all emphasized different aspects of the art.

If you break down the form to its bare essentials, from beginning to end, it follows an evolution of Grasp Bird’s Tail from simple to complex.

[Fubo]

I'm curious, in the video example on the first page of Hungs son, he drives the knee past the toes. Is this typical of the style or just the individuals expression?

[Steve Rowe]

This is great, it's in Japanese but you don't really need to understand the words. I studied at a school of students of Wang Shu Jin when I lived in Tokyo back around 2000. They weren't teaching the internal mechanics at all, but I've always liked the Chen Pan Ling form, the use of the xingyi like frame and then as you can see in this video every taiji move is used as an entry for the xingyi fists and bagua throws and sweeps.

Plus Wang Shu Jin was a classic fat man, they don't come much better.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnhEwTAQr7Q&t=130s

Interesting how the Japanese mind interprets it. That lovely flow is still retained in the form and yet gets lost in application as they revert to 'karate mind'.

[I-mon]

Thing is though, I love these applications because at the first level of the form, they're showing the most simple, obvious applications that will be at least somewhat useful to anyone without needing advanced skills or internal mechanics. It's a good place to start, IMO, rather than focusing on the subtle joint rotations and "leading into emptiness" kind of stuff that's specific to taiji.

If you look at the applications demonstrated by people like Su Dong Chen and Luo Dexiu, you see they're usually doing the same thing, especially with beginners.

[Trick]

This is great, it's in Japanese but you don't really need to understand the words. I studied at a school of students of Wang Shu Jin when I lived in Tokyo back around 2000. They weren't teaching the internal mechanics at all, but I've always liked the Chen Pan Ling form, the use of the xingyi like frame and then as you can see in this video every taiji move is used as an entry for the xingyi fists and bagua throws and sweeps.

Plus Wang Shu Jin was a classic fat man, they don't come much better.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnhEwTAQr7Q&t=130s

Interesting how the Japanese mind interprets it. That lovely flow is still retained in the form and yet gets lost in application as they revert to 'karate mind'.

'Japanese mind' ?,'Karate mind' ?, I do have heard of these expressions(long time ago)in Sweden from senior Karatekas turned ICMArtists, but could never really understand what they mean ? Prior hearing these kind of statements I had seen and met in Okinawa Karatekas that showed flow and evasiveness with perfectly combined soft and hard application practice(throws and strikes). And take Aikido, a Japanese martial art that is very much about flow.

[Bao]

Interesting how the Japanese mind interprets it. That lovely flow is still retained in the form and yet gets lost in application as they revert to 'karate mind'.

'Japanese mind' ?,'Karate mind' ?, I do have heard of these expressions(long time ago)in Sweden from senior Karatekas turned ICMArtists, but could never really understand what they mean ? Prior hearing these kind of statements I had seen and met in Okinawa Karatekas that showed flow and evasiveness with perfectly combined soft and hard application practice(throws and strikes). And take Aikido, a Japanese martial art that is very much about flow.

Agree with Steve. But Steve has Karate in his repertoire, so if anyone has the right to make that judgment, it's him.

I know very few who can handle both the soft and hard styles at the same time. The best ones I know about seem to have mostly an "IMA" mind. Even their Karate, although they do the movements that looks hard, they still keep their body very, very relaxed all of the time. One practical problem if you keep stiffing up all of the time, like in the clip above, is that you restrict your body to a certain distance. It's impossible to change quickly to another distance, to gain distance or enter, if your body is locked. You can see this problem in IMA practitioners as well. Sometimes they can look relaxed, yet they have a problem changing distance, because they are locked by their own structure, or by a "frame". Relaxing in solo practice and keeping relaxed when you are up against someone, especially one who use strength, are IME very different things. That is why you need a training method that teach your body to keep relaxed.

[Trick]

Interesting how the Japanese mind interprets it. That lovely flow is still retained in the form and yet gets lost in application as they revert to 'karate mind'.

'Japanese mind' ?,'Karate mind' ?, I do have heard of these expressions(long time ago)in Sweden from senior Karatekas turned ICMArtists, but could never really understand what they mean ? Prior hearing these kind of statements I had seen and met in Okinawa Karatekas that showed flow and evasiveness with perfectly combined soft and hard application practice(throws and strikes). And take Aikido, a Japanese martial art that is very much about flow.

Agree with Steve. But Steve has Karate in his repertoire, so if anyone has the right to make that judgment, it's him.

I know very few who can handle both the soft and hard styles at the same time. The best ones I know about seem to have mostly an "IMA" mind. Even their Karate, although they do the movements that looks hard, they still keep their body very, very relaxed all of the time. One practical problem if you keep stiffing up all of the time, like in the clip above, is that you restrict your body to a certain distance. It's impossible to change quickly to another distance, to gain distance or enter, if your body is locked. You can see this problem in IMA practitioners as well. Sometimes they can look relaxed, yet they have a problem changing distance, because they are locked by their own structure, or by a "frame". Relaxing in solo practice and keeping relaxed when you are up against someone, especially one who use strength, are IME very different things. That is why you need a training method that teach your body to keep relaxed.

I can not see the above vid clip, but i got the impression it is about some sort of application practice and not about free sparring/fighting? If it is about sparring/fighting - spar more you will tense less.

[I-mon]

As I see it, the many manifestations or various presentations of Chen Pan-ling Taiji.. have to do with its origin as a synthetic style, or inherent “three in one” concept ”. Beyond that, the variants passed down, including the Wang Shu-Jin lineage and CPL’s son…often takes on the flavor of the practitioner’s particular background.. .. beyond that, most of the people I’ve met who practice CPL often have an earlier background in another Taiji variant or (internal) martial art . So there are some who practice it with a large frame and emphasis on projecting the spine vertically, while others use a slight diagonal lean.. small frame, large frame , upper middle and lower basin…some who fajin or others who carry the jin and don’t issue.. There is also a contingency who tend to emphasize (more or less) the reeling silk aspect or rather the rise, fall, drill, overturn throughout the form. .. In Taiwan besides Wang shujin there were others like Hung Yixiang, Su Dongchen and Luo Deshou who have practiced it.

Nonetheless, I don’t think there is any particular inherent genius to the form outside of the conceptual format of combining the characteristics of Yang, Wu and Chen into a synthesized variant. Yet in most cases, the various CPL teachers in Taiwan are not specifically aware of how to differentiate the three. Nor will you find a wide interest in its martial value beyond the norm. That being said, you have to find people who understand the concepts and can demonstrate the differences and have a fondness for the martial quality.

Its frame was touted to possess fixed step, half step and moving step versions, so it is an easy fit for Xingyi and Bagua practitioners. .

At the end of the day, its form by form sequence is identical to Yang ..yet provides a format to break down the applications and body structure according to a wider conceptual framework.

Besides that, as a sub style it is probably not (as) bogged down with its loyalty to lineage or allegiance to style idiosyncrasies. The four or five teachers of CPL I’ve had all emphasized different aspects of the art.

If you break down the form to its bare essentials, from beginning to end, it follows an evolution of Grasp Bird’s Tail from simple to complex.

Thanks for chiming in Marcus! Do you have any comments about the applications shown in this clip? Like, is there some sort of common progression in some of these lines, from simple apps dependent on position and standard punching kicking pushing and pulling or chin na which *don't* require any internal development and can therefore be practiced effectively by beginners (as we see in the applications for the xingyi elements and animals, and the bagua houtian movements, in Luo Dexiu's yizong system, for example) and then moving into more advanced applications which do require more refined skills specific to taijiquan?

Here's Su Dong Chen showing some nice "low-level" applications:

[Steve Rowe]

I was taught by Ma Lee Yang that the fa jin of Yang Tai Chi was like 'a pinball' it pulses but doesn't stop, my Iaido Sensei Okimitsu Fuji taught the kime (focus) of a cut is like 'a stick of bamboo' it has a knot but continues, my Karate Sensei Toru Takamizawa taught that 'kime' means 'stop point' and karate strikes extend beyond the reach of peng. The video had the karate style of movement and stop/start kime as opposed the curved 'pulsing' I'd expect from Tai Chi.