the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

This is great, it's in Japanese but you don't really need to understand the words. I studied at a school of students of Wang Shu Jin when I lived in Tokyo back around 2000. They weren't teaching the internal mechanics at all, but I've always liked the Chen Pan Ling form, the use of the xingyi like frame and then as you can see in this video every taiji move is used as an entry for the xingyi fists and bagua throws and sweeps.

Plus Wang Shu Jin was a classic fat man, they don't come much better.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnhEwTAQr7Q&t=130s

I have great respect for Wang but this is pretty standard yang style and the applications are not enlightening

I agree they're not enlightening, they're extremely basic, that's what I like about the form. You've trained in a TST lineage right Wayne? I like these applications because they remind me very much of the xingyi and bagua apps we'd do with Luo Dexiu in Taiwan. I never studied Taiji with Luo but I think this is the same form he does.

Yes it is the same form
Huang I Hsiang,s son does the best version I have seen

https://youtu.be/6uCETaf7INg

Hey Simon,

The use of the xingyi like frame ?

If you're picking up on this, then that's probably a result of the cross training of the performer.
Chen Pan Ling as well as WSJ both cross trained the "three sisters".

I'm not interested in any right or wrongs of mixing things together, but in my opinion if someone wants to show taiji, they should be able to do it without any mixing of bagua or hsingyi. Taiji has palms, fists and throws and sweeps, so I'm not sure without watching the vid all the way through - which I would like to do at some point..

I practice this form and I assure you there is no mixing of other styles than TCC, it is a synthesis of Chen, Yang and Wu tai chi and nothing else. they even called it Orthodox Taiji.. The appplication, frame or whatever should be tai chi and nothing else. In my opinion !

When I trained briefly with Luo (CPL taiji) the techniques we did were taiji from this form, not anything else. Luo and TST may pronounce or emphasise certain aspects above others, but that's normal for any school or practitioner. If you see their version of the form it's usually more spirally than your typical Yang or Wu. I think that maybe some bagua influence creeping in, but it's also in line with Chen style to some degree. Doing it with Luo I felt some transitions may have had that influence. I have seen this form performed by other CPL branch and the silk reeling wasn't as pronounced as TST eg. Marcus Brinkman example.

End of the day, people will do what they will with it.

Interesting George. When we learned it in Tokyo, they claimed that Chen Pan Ling and a panel of other practitioners got together and modified the Yang form incorporating methods from xingyi and bagua to make it more combat effective in less time, something about teaching it to people in the army? And that that was also why the applications tended to be much less about "leading the opponent into emptiness" and more about driving straight through the centreline. They told us the 60/40 stance from xingyi was incorporated into all of the moves as it was more appropriate for the army. Of course origins stories are always at least partially made up or embellished, and my memory of what I was told in another language 20 years ago should also not be trusted!

Anyone care to share some other performances of this form? I've recently picked up my practice of the grasping the bird's tail sequence, so I'm watching a bit more taiji again at the moment.

Also, George, Wayne or anyone who's done this form, what are your thoughts on the "peng" movement here? It feels much more like a xingyi zuan to me than the usual yang style peng, very much like the xinyiliuhe movement in the beginning of "head pounds tombstone" and "eagle grasping".

Firstly I don't practice this form but have trained with those that do.
I only go on observation and what I have been told
In CPL,s book there are photos of him with the leading figures in each lineage
I was told he travelled to the Chen village in the 30's and called his form either modified Chen or new Chen at one stage
The ward off we do in our form is like drilling as well so I don't see a difference
I would like anyone to tell me where they see movement that is like any other system than yang in the form
The only point I see that is a little bit Wu is the high roll back in GST

In his book he states categorically that he travelled to Chen village. He also states categorically that there is no doubt that Chen was the source of Yang. Believe what you will, just sayin' that is what he said.....

Simon,

I tried to look into the WSJ angle in the past in realtion to a hybrid form (that might or might not be similar to what you were exposed to). The hybrid I once learnt was based upon the CPL Orthodox form, which ultimately led me to it - and I wouldn't be the only one. It turns out that might be connected to another teacher, but that's all by the by.... But it's not beyond the pale that this teacher was also teaching CPL materials in that part of the world - and who knows in what form and manner. Anyway.. I learnt that hybrid in the UK and concluded that that wasn't what WSJ was doing or teaching from what I could tell, he was teaching Orthodox CPL taiji seperately to xingyi, seperately to bagua. If you've combined everything so to speak into one thing, why bother teaching three distinct styles seprately as well. It doesn't really make sense to make a hodge podge of one of them (taiji) and leave the other two as stand alone. Not to me anyway.

If you want to explore CPL taiji, one of the best thing you might do is try to pick up CPL's taiji textbook. There's a lot of good information, and it's one of the better practice manuals I've seen. I recall getting mine from Rochester tai chi who at the time also sold a tape of a Chinese man performing the set. Sorry but I can't recall his name. Sadly being VHS I now no longer have it.

Taiji Quan from Wu Jian-Quan, Yang Shao-Hou, Ji Zu-Xiu and Xu Yu-Sheng. He also spent a year (from 1927 to 1928) in the village of Chen Jia Guo to research Chen's Taiji Quan.

The modern classic of Chen Pan Ling Taiji Quan emerged after Chen Pan-Ling chaired a government committee of renowned martial artists of the 1940's. The resultant form, supported by scientific theory, incorporates the best from the Taiji Quan styles popular, in China, at that time. Chen Pan-Ling was an advocate of the approach to standardisation and systematic teaching so that Taiji. In his efforts to develop a synthesised form Chen Pan-Ling was conscious to combine applications that told a story, were effective and properly representative of the three schools of Taiji of which the synthesised form is comprised. The result was a form which captured the undeniable martial arts nature within the most beautiful movements.

The Yang and Wu styles are the most obvious in terms of incorporation and contribution to the development of the Chen Pan-Ling form. There has been some debate on the significance of the influence that Chen Taiji Quan had on the development of Chen Pan-Ling's form. Chen Pan-Ling studied at Chen Jia Guo and assisted with the publication of Chen Xin's book on Chen Taiji Quan, so his knowledge and understanding of Chen Taiji Quan is indisputable. As to Chen Taiji Quan's influence on the Chen Pan Ling form: the most obvious evidence is within the form itself and the degree of spiraling rotation on the vertical axis - silk reeling energy.

http://www.kuoshu.co.uk/Chen%20Pan%20Ling.html

Regards the ward off, I can't say I've related to anything other than ward off. That could be my lack of imagination though
But! it may be a bit closer to Wu than Yang - and their ward off is quite different indeed (comparing to YCF). The CPL version you could argue is somewhere in between. Maybe. It's hard for me now after 15 years and having done all three at one time or other. I just do ward offs lol

Wayne,

At the best of times Yang style and Wu style is practically the same thing in terms of content, "under the bonnet" - of course the style of doing them is somewhat different, but it's more the same thing than not when it comes to the majority of postures and movements - well all tai chi is like that in my experience, underneath the stylistic aspects we're dealing with the same blueprint. One obvious difference is that the first repulse monkey is of the twist step variety - like Wu style and unlike Yang style. White Crane is different to Yang style being done in the Wu style way of doing it rather than Yangs posture. To name a couple off the top of my head. If there's anymore I would have to review .. I also have modified my own form over the years mixing things in and out from the tai chi I have picked up. I think I've probably put in the Wu style of doing rooster on one leg for example.

Not a bad example here.



Wayne, I noticed another Wu bit near the beginning - where he presses to the front after circling around & pulling across - that press to the front is in Wu style but not Yang.

As far as performances of the form goes, this one is the best one I've ever been able to find on the youtube.



S

That's the one Wayne posted, I was just watching it. Nice.

I agree that there is very little that differs in yang and Wu once you get beyond the hair and skin of the tiger.
Saying that I find the first ward off to the front much more yang than Wu.
The main thing that differs in yang and Wu is the forward lean of Wu
In the form repulse monkey is almost reversed
Wild horse flings its mane and fair lady differ in number,placement and manner.
Apart from that I can't see a great deal of difference between the two
That also applies to Chen ,fu and sun
The only one that mystifies me a bit is Hao but I have not had training in that style
All the long forms are basic training within a system and differ little one from another as they are all a starting step On a journey

Thanks y'all.

Interesting to see those other versions, it is clearly the same basic choreography as what we did in Tokyo, but in Tokyo (the WSJ school) they were very explicit about using a 60/40 back weighted stance as the basis of almost every position throughout the form, instead of the more usual 70/30 front weighted bow stance that you see in the standard Yang Chengfu form and a couple of the videos shown here.

Guang Ping Yang has a 60/40 stance like bagua.