THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby Bao on Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:03 am

middleway wrote:
Actually it's more of a personal trait. Some people grabs on and release very easily. Some others tend to lock up themselves easy and can have it difficult to release or unlock, especially if they are unbalanced (not only physically, but also mentally). It might be hard to put yourself into another person's shoes because insome respects we might sometimes be more different than we think. But I know this from personal experience because I have had this problem myself, that I in different situations have locked up my body, more or less involuntary, and have not been able to "unlock". So some of what the teacher in these clips does might work differently depending on what person he demonstrate his things on. You might say that he has an ideal opponent to demonstrate certain things on or maybe that he is very good to adapt his things to this person.


IMO if this trait is seen then other training should stop and the teacher should do everything they can to get the student out of this problem. This is a huge weakness.


I agree, it's a weakness. Sometimes though, it's not easy to re-learn, because you are what you are and sometimes your body just behaves like it behaves. Why I started to love my tai chi practice and why I continued was because of that my body was very tense. I had a very strong muscle tone/residual muscle tension. When I started to practice, I saw the benefits right away, but it still took many years to really teach my body how to behave differently.

I have had a few people i have taught who would 'overreact' / have a strange reaction to something i did very regularly. It is something that i wont allow and will tell them they have to work to stop acting that way .. i never see this in people who spar or free grapple alot though


So what I referred to is not something that is taught, it's something you have and can be hard to get rid of. But I do agree that some responses are taught and that there is a behavior of over acting that is taught and can also be hard to get rid of. It's not just in Tai Chi, where some people are taught to literary push themselves away from the practicing partner, just like they push themselves away from a wall. Just look at Judo and Aikido or any kind of throwing art. If you prepare yourself to fall and roll when you practice throws, mostly you instinctively help the opponent to complete the throw because you already prepare your body to fall or roll as soon as the opponent grabs old of you.
Last edited by Bao on Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby Taste of Death on Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:26 am

This was Martial Man's introduction to 5 Ancestors Fist. You guys are assuming a lot and by going down this road are seeming to discredit what the videos clearly show, some of the best cima that has been posted on this forum. I am not surprised that the "will it work against an experienced grappler?" crew have chimed in. Time to book your ticket to Kuala Lumpur and go prove them wrong.
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby Wanderingdragon on Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:40 am

Nice Demos, but it doesn't demonstrate the soft side necessary to change effortlessly , an undeniable component that would deem it internal . Very simple example, at around the 12 min mark , there is no reason one cannot strike dead center while both hands have been engaged in the escape technique, why continue to hold the wrist if you recognize that that hand is occupied?
Last edited by Wanderingdragon on Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby Ian on Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:41 am

ToD, I actually like the video, I'm not trying to discredit anything.
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby middleway on Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:13 pm

. I am not surprised that the "will it work against an experienced grappler?"


Sorry who said that? Looks like you are reading into things here. I was talking to bao. Hence quoting him. Thanks for the reply bao.

Secondly i also said i enjoyed the video
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby Bao on Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:20 pm

Taste of Death wrote:This was Martial Man's introduction to 5 Ancestors Fist. You guys are assuming a lot and by going down this road are seeming to discredit what the videos clearly show, some of the best cima that has been posted on this forum. I am not surprised that the "will it work against an experienced grappler?" crew have chimed in. Time to book your ticket to Kuala Lumpur and go prove them wrong.


I an not trying to discredit anyone. I loved the clip and I wrote that it's a better Tai Chi clip than most of Tai Chi clips.
I can see that the man has great skill. What I am saying is mostly something general. A whole lot of body manipulations doesn't work the same on everybody. People have different weight, height, structure etc. They offer a different amount of connection, some are more balanced, they react differently etc. There is a general body type and a general behavior, but then there are a whole lot of variations and exceptions as well. If you have a lot of experience and have practiced against many different people, I believe that you need to agree with me that sometimes things just don't work. This guy would probably sense what can be done and not and would adjust his method accordingly. What you see here is cooperative and show examples of how the style could work and the idea behind it. That doesn't make the vid worse or better.
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:21 pm

I hope you don't think I am discrediting these teachers
I think they are high quality
The interviewer on the other hand is not very advanced and going along with whatever is offered
As for questioning the thing of not being able to move or remove your hand that is a different matter
And the statement if you don't believe it go to KL is just silly
If you believe it bring them here to Australia
If I were to go back to KL there are more productive ways for me to spend my time
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby Taste of Death on Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:37 pm

middleway wrote:
. I am not surprised that the "will it work against an experienced grappler?"


Sorry who said that? Looks like you are reading into things here.


middleway wrote: .. i never see this in people who spar or free grapple alot though ;)


You said it. ;D
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby Taste of Death on Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:43 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I hope you don't think I am discrediting these teachers
I think they are high quality
The interviewer on the other hand is not very advanced and going along with whatever is offered.


This is true of all demonstration videos but as you say the teachers are skilled so why focus on what the uke does? Many men of greater skill would find themselves trapped, too.
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby Wanderingdragon on Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:06 pm

When demonstrating the skills of an art, one should use someone of equal skill and understanding to offer the contingencies in the what if situations. Or it's just showing off.
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby Taste of Death on Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:30 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:When demonstrating the skills of an art, one should use someone of equal skill and understanding to offer the contingencies in the what if situations. Or it's just showing off.


If they had equal skills most of what is being shown would be neutralized. What is the point of a demo if not to show off? That's what a demo is.
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:57 pm

Taste of Death wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:I hope you don't think I am discrediting these teachers
I think they are high quality
The interviewer on the other hand is not very advanced and going along with whatever is offered.


This is true of all demonstration videos but as you say the teachers are skilled so why focus on what the uke does? Many men of greater skill would find themselves trapped, too.



Do you know these men have you trained with them
How do you know men of greater skill would find themselves trapped
Just because you state something it does not make it true
It is not what the Uke does it is what they are demonstrating
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby Taste of Death on Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:22 pm

wayne hansen wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:I hope you don't think I am discrediting these teachers
I think they are high quality
The interviewer on the other hand is not very advanced and going along with whatever is offered.


This is true of all demonstration videos but as you say the teachers are skilled so why focus on what the uke does? Many men of greater skill would find themselves trapped, too.



Do you know these men have you trained with them
How do you know men of greater skill would find themselves trapped
Just because you state something it does not make it true
It is not what the Uke does it is what they are demonstrating


I can do what they are doing. That is how I know.
Last edited by Taste of Death on Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby middleway on Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:30 am

You said it. ;D


I didnt say what you said. I said that the effect Bao is discribing is not something i have seen in people who grapple or spar alot ... that includes Traditional Internal Martial Artists who do. Like Serges or Sam Chins students.
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby northern_mantis on Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:12 am

Taste of Death wrote:
I can do what they are doing. That is how I know.


If you can explain how to make somebody be unable to release their grip without manipulating the tendons in their arm (which obviously isn't happening here) and without any psychological manipulation I'll happily take this statement back however..........

It is impossible to do what they are doing without any psychological influence that focuses them on their compromised structure etc. etc. or just straight makes them compliant. This is why, whilst it's a nice enough soft skill, it disappears with any level of resistance and is therefore largely a waste of time from a martial perspective.

Still, that aside, best training vid I've seen in a while.
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