THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby windwalker on Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:21 am

Taste of Death wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:I get you now but even if double weighted surely he can just remove his arm


That's why the teacher laughs. It's a weird feeling to not be able to let go. It's always fun when someone experiences it for the first time. When the teacher has him like that he can't push off to right himself. The teacher is giving him no place to land. That's where the softness of the torso and arms traps him. Like the bird in the hand unable to fly away. It's trapped. But unlike that this is not a trick.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnPir2zQSXU

He can not remove is arm because he is part of the teacher at this point in a demo setting showing a skill.
How this might be applied as some have mentioned is another kind of training...


Similar explanations with clips showing it in use in "demo" settings showing the same types of reactions.
Whether its useful, true, or not depends on the focus of ones practice.

To gain the skill might be a time investment that not many are willing to make, the skill itself may not fit into
ones own approaches or practice. I like teacher Chin's explanations concerning the 3 points. yin/yang/neutral point.

there is a force in physics called "restoring force" which might help to explain why a person sticks or can not remove their arm or body part affected.
I use this along with others in my own explanations of similar demos, finding it seems to cover the same ideas and is a little more clear for those I work with.
What happens, happens at the point of contact....
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby Taste of Death on Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:15 am

middleway wrote:
You said it. ;D


I didnt say what you said. I said that the effect Bao is discribing is not something i have seen in people who grapple or spar alot ... that includes Traditional Internal Martial Artists who do. Like Serges or Sam Chins students.


I quoted you. Read it again.

I train with two I Liq Chuan guys and a former collegiate wrestler and it works on them like it works on everyone.
Last edited by Taste of Death on Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby Taste of Death on Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:42 am

northern_mantis wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:
I can do what they are doing. That is how I know.


If you can explain how to make somebody be unable to release their grip without manipulating the tendons in their arm (which obviously isn't happening here) and without any psychological manipulation I'll happily take this statement back however..........

It is impossible to do what they are doing without any psychological influence that focuses them on their compromised structure etc. etc. or just straight makes them compliant. This is why, whilst it's a nice enough soft skill, it disappears with any level of resistance and is therefore largely a waste of time from a martial perspective.

Still, that aside, best training vid I've seen in a while.


It is like the phrase "holding on for dear life".

Urban Dictionary:
to hold someone or something as tightly as you can in order to avoid falling.

to use a lot of effort to keep something.
hang/hold on (to someone or something) for dear life.

He can't let go because he feels like he is falling into the teacher. The feeling is if he lets go he will fall or be defenseless. If he lets go of the arm that same arm can easily deliver a strike. The Martial Man has fallen and he can't get up. The teacher's shenfa is such that the Martial Man feels that by letting go he will be in an even more disadvantageous position than he already is. It is a mindfuck for sure. Look at his face afterwards. He is incredulous. But he can't do anything about it. It is not the psychological influence of the teacher it is the Martial Man's inability to comprehend what is happening. Been there myself. You just have to laugh.
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby middleway on Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:07 am

ughh ToD

You ...
"will it work against an experienced grappler?"


Me ...
i never see this in people who spar or free grapple alot


Your question ... and my description of experience ... are not saying the same thing. My comment isnt even discussing the video clip, it is a response to Baos description of his situation.

But regardless, Back to the topic..

If the 'not letting go' is to avoid the danger of disengagement then fine. But this is seen everywhere in the martial arts and isnt anything to do with 'locking' the opponent so that they cant let go. It is to do with setting them up so that tactically they dont think they should. Very similar to Sams entry methods in his clip, it is more about not disengaging so you dont get hit, than it is about being locked so you cant physcially let go.

congrats on the ILQ guys and wrestler.
Last edited by middleway on Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby Taste of Death on Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:22 am

middleway wrote:ughh ToD

You ...
"will it work against an experienced grappler?"


Me ...
i never see this in people who spar or free grapple alot


Your question ... and my description of experience ... are not saying the same thing. My comment isnt even discussing the video clip, it is a response to Baos description of his situation.

But regardless, Back to the topic..

If the 'not letting go' is to avoid the danger of disengagement then fine. But this is seen everywhere in the martial arts and isnt anything to do with 'locking' the opponent so that they cant let go. It is to do with setting them up so that tactically they dont think they should. Very similar to Sams entry methods in his clip, it is more about not disengaging so you dont get hit, than it is about being locked so you cant physcially let go.

congrats on the ILQ guys and wrestler.


It's not my question. It's the same question (and its iterations) that is asked on every martial arts forum when someone posts a clip that shows some skill unique to ima. Would it work against a wrestler? Yes, it works against wrestlers. In your response to bao you were implying that the effectiveness of 5 Ancestors Fist relies on a trick of the mind or the Martial Man's confusion.

He can't let go because he feels like he is falling into the teacher. The feeling is if he lets go he will fall or be defenseless. If he lets go of the arm that same arm can easily deliver a strike. The Martial Man has fallen and he can't get up. The teacher's shenfa is such that the Martial Man feels that by letting go he will be in an even more disadvantageous position than he already is. It is a mindfuck for sure. Look at his face afterwards. He is incredulous. But he can't do anything about it. It is not the psychological influence of the teacher it is the Martial Man's inability to comprehend what is happening. Been there myself. You just have to laugh.

and
If the 'not letting go' is to avoid the danger of disengagement then fine. But this is seen everywhere in the martial arts and isnt anything to do with 'locking' the opponent so that they cant let go. It is to do with setting them up so that tactically they dont think they should. Very similar to Sams entry methods in his clip, it is more about not disengaging so you dont get hit, than it is about being locked so you cant physcially let go.

are not the same thing.
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby shawnsegler on Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:46 am

S- Kicks up feet, cracks beer.
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:27 pm

northern_mantis wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:
I can do what they are doing. That is how I know.


If you can explain how to make somebody be unable to release their grip without manipulating the tendons in their arm (which obviously isn't happening here) and without any psychological manipulation I'll happily take this statement back however..........

It is impossible to do what they are doing without any psychological influence that focuses them on their compromised structure etc. etc. or just straight makes them compliant. This is why, whilst it's a nice enough soft skill, it disappears with any level of resistance and is therefore largely a waste of time from a martial perspective.

Still, that aside, best training vid I've seen in a while.



A bit of common sense,I thought I was alone out here
The Sam chin clip him explaining and using simple folding technique
The guy leaves his hand there because he is letting Sam explain
He is also listening through an interperator whic gives a time delay
Even my lowest students on Sam removing his arm would fill the gap and strike to the face
This is what pushing hands trains
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby Taste of Death on Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:37 pm

wayne hansen wrote:
northern_mantis wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:
I can do what they are doing. That is how I know.


If you can explain how to make somebody be unable to release their grip without manipulating the tendons in their arm (which obviously isn't happening here) and without any psychological manipulation I'll happily take this statement back however..........

It is impossible to do what they are doing without any psychological influence that focuses them on their compromised structure etc. etc. or just straight makes them compliant. This is why, whilst it's a nice enough soft skill, it disappears with any level of resistance and is therefore largely a waste of time from a martial perspective.

Still, that aside, best training vid I've seen in a while.



A bit of common sense,I thought I was alone out here
The Sam chin clip him explaining and using simple folding technique
The guy leaves his hand there because he is letting Sam explain
He is also listening through an interperator whic gives a time delay
Even my lowest students on Sam removing his arm would fill the gap and strike to the face
This is what pushing hands trains


I do yiquan not I Liq Chuan. And that was David's post not mine. I found nothing useful in that video.
Last edited by Taste of Death on Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby Taste of Death on Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:38 pm

shawnsegler wrote:S- Kicks up feet, cracks beer.


No worries. I am immune to butthurtedness. ;D
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby Bao on Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:20 pm

This is why, whilst it's a nice enough soft skill, it disappears with any level of resistance and is therefore largely a waste of time from a martial perspective.


I don't know if we speak the same language here, but I don't really agree. It's the resistance that makes it work. If someone grabs on to you for real, that person's intention is to keep that grip, not to release. His mind is not set to easily release, on the contrary the harder you try to get away, the harder he will try to hold on. So if something suddenly happens, like losing balance, his first reaction should probably not be to release, but to hold on firmer. This is why these methods works in situations where the opponent have a single sided mind-set. but to make it work, you need to attack the root. If he controls his balance he is free to move as he will. The trouble is IME not to get someone to hold on and keep the grip when you do a technique fast or precise enough. The trouble is to get to that root and take control of his balance. A dancer already have no stationary balance, so it's hard to get to the point of control. Some other people are very stable and you can pull or push without anything happens with his balance. In a real situation, it's probably more easy to lock a person's hold if he keeps his feet still. But a real opponent likely won't be still, so it's much harder to control the balance enough to lock his hold. And again, and especially in real encounters, personal and physical traits usually kick in, and often in the most unexpected way.

Just have that interviewer walk around when the teacher tries to do the technique instead of having him standing still. Have him walk towards the teacher, to the side or away, and you will immediately see that it will become a very different game.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:34 pm

I tell my students that when someone grabs your arm they have a purpose
It is kinetic not static
They either want to pull you push or hit you
Low level fighters might want to immobilise you but that is quickly overcome
But to stay locked in one place is nothing I have seen
TOD if you can do it even on your training partners show us
Even if you can without touching the teachers in the clips how is it possible to know they can do it
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby Formosa Neijia on Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:03 pm

Five ancestors is one of the style I practice so I'll chime in. The other lineages of wuzuquan like the ones here in Taiwan teach that the soft part which supposedly comes from Xuan Nu is a myth because Xuan Nu never existed. We also don't train soft because that's not what the style is about. In fact, if anyone would bother to look at the style outside of these clips, you would see a lot of muscular tension -- which is why wuzuquan is so awesome. We actually squeeze the muscles at the basic level in order to build them up. We even use the term "jianshen" or bodybuilding to describe the aim of the 10 zhan (battle) forms only found in this system.

Here are some of my favorite clips.
https://youtu.be/h7mCHOyRs6o

https://youtu.be/epMjrx78Bwo

Besides building up the body, the muscular contractions are part of the neigung training. The muscles are squeezed then relaxed which brings chi from the center to the limbs and then back to the center in a type of pumping action. This combined with the dantian breathing patterns leads to iron shirt training.

The Malaysia group is apparently into another martial art called wujiquan which is a prototypical taiji-looking art and I would speculate that it has shaped their thinking somewhat. This is likely why they are showing this and others aren't. As for this in the first clip working or not against wrestlers, etc. no one in the wuzuquan community would tell you that. We have punches, kicks, and grappling for that.

I get it that some people are obsessed with soft everything so clips like this that show the exact opposite of what these other styles (typically harder southern styles) are supposed to be about are passed around but this isn't typical of wuzuquan training and frankly I wouldn't make too much out of it.
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby northern_mantis on Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:23 am

Bao wrote:
This is why, whilst it's a nice enough soft skill, it disappears with any level of resistance and is therefore largely a waste of time from a martial perspective.


I don't know if we speak the same language here, but I don't really agree. It's the resistance that makes it work. If someone grabs on to you for real, that person's intention is to keep that grip, not to release. His mind is not set to easily release, on the contrary the harder you try to get away, the harder he will try to hold on. So if something suddenly happens, like losing balance, his first reaction should probably not be to release, but to hold on firmer. This is why these methods works in situations where the opponent have a single sided mind-set. but to make it work, you need to attack the root. If he controls his balance he is free to move as he will. The trouble is IME not to get someone to hold on and keep the grip when you do a technique fast or precise enough. The trouble is to get to that root and take control of his balance. A dancer already have no stationary balance, so it's hard to get to the point of control. Some other people are very stable and you can pull or push without anything happens with his balance. In a real situation, it's probably more easy to lock a person's hold if he keeps his feet still. But a real opponent likely won't be still, so it's much harder to control the balance enough to lock his hold. And again, and especially in real encounters, personal and physical traits usually kick in, and often in the most unexpected way.

Just have that interviewer walk around when the teacher tries to do the technique instead of having him standing still. Have him walk towards the teacher, to the side or away, and you will immediately see that it will become a very different game.


That makes sense in terms of using an opponents single mindedness (or double weightedness :)) to set them up. However I took something slightly differently from the video, rightly or wrongly, in that they were trying to get him to maintain grip against his intent. Was this not your interpretation?

Thanks for the input, like I said I really like their stuff as well and would like to get to the bottom of it.
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby cloudz on Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:28 am

man... I need to watch this vid!! :D
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Re: THE MARTIAL MAN: Chee Kim Thong — 5 Ancestors Fist

Postby Wanderingdragon on Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:46 am

Just bear in mind, every technique has but a split second window of opportunity for success, then it becomes the necessity of sensitivity and change.
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