"Is It In-Line with Yin and Yang?"

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Re: "Is It In-Line with Yin and Yang?"

Postby windwalker on Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:36 pm

Strange wrote:i can do it, but it is not consistent
and i don't think i can do it in a real fight condition.


cool sounds interesting

luck in your training.
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Re: "Is It In-Line with Yin and Yang?"

Postby Strange on Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:06 am

天官指星 单对月 风摆荷叶 影成双
i said slowly and evenly; i did not say weakly
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Re: "Is It In-Line with Yin and Yang?"

Postby robert on Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:30 am

I don't speak Mandarin so thanks for that.

Strange wrote:ww, my 2 cents is that as far as martial arts is concerned
knowing/understanding with your brain is not enough, it's not like a math or legal concept
in other words: what is "know"? all the following are "know":
- i understand in my brain
- i understand and can do it when practicing alone
- i understand and can do it with my practicing partner
- i can apply it in a real fight situation

I think knowing and understanding are two different things. I think there are really three things - knowing, understanding, and doing. A person who has just learned the choreography of a form may not know about yin/yang separation. Watching this video they will know about y/y spearation, but they probably wouldn't understand it. If they had an instructor explaining it and showing what they are doing wrong, over time they may learn how to do it and once they learn how to do it they would understand it. Some things you will understand before you learn how to do it, but I'm not sure that's true in this case. I think there are quite a few things in taiji that you don't understand until you can do it.

I think he makes a good point in that video - ...unless you match what you believe to physical reality you still are not doing taiji. And, of course, as the video says: Only when you can actualize the yin-yang separation, have you entered the door. Just doing the choreography isn't taiji, you need to follow the principles.
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Re: "Is It In-Line with Yin and Yang?"

Postby suckinlhbf on Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:44 am

many people think ima can be understood by the brain
for me, i have my doubts...cos i'm not like many ppl


I don't want my brain to mess up my training so I have no idea how much my brain know and understand. I want the body to know, understand and move.
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Re: "Is It In-Line with Yin and Yang?"

Postby Bao on Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:04 pm

robert wrote:I think knowing and understanding are two different things. I think there are really three things - knowing, understanding, and doing


Image

Image

A person who has just learned the choreography of a form may not know about yin/yang separation. Watching this video they will know about y/y spearation, but they probably wouldn't understand it. If they had an instructor explaining it and showing what they are doing wrong, over time they may learn how to do it and once they learn how to do it they would understand it. Some things you will understand before you learn how to do it, but I'm not sure that's true in this case. I think there are quite a few things in taiji that you don't understand until you can do it.


Both his explanation and what he does is different from many other schools. So here it's not only about doing something specific, but also about learning and practice something in a specific context.
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Re: "Is It In-Line with Yin and Yang?"

Postby robert on Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:15 pm

His teaching methods are different, he tends to talk about body mechanics rather than qi, but I like that. I like what was posted in the thread about the kua from some of his writings.
Last edited by robert on Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Is It In-Line with Yin and Yang?"

Postby Bao on Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:25 pm

robert wrote:His teaching methods are different, he tends to talk about body mechanics rather than qi, but I like that. I like what was posted in the thread about the kua from some of his writings.


Qi? ??? Who ever mentioned qi? I couldn't care less about qi talk. Practically speaking, what is kept still, what is moving and what is separated and how, are the interesting parts. This is where this is different from many other schools.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Is It In-Line with Yin and Yang?"

Postby robert on Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:51 pm

Bao wrote:Practically speaking, what is kept still, what is moving and what is separated and how, are the interesting parts.

Yes, that is what I call body mechanics.

Bao wrote:This is where this is different from many other schools.

Are you saying that some schools don't teach body mechanics or that they teach different body mechanics?
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Re: "Is It In-Line with Yin and Yang?"

Postby Strange on Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:58 pm

"Just doing the choreography isn't taiji, you need to follow the principles."

i am not saying i disagree with you about knowing, understanding and doing
but in my opinion it is more applicable to traits like compassion, benevolence, loyalty. etc
in fighting arts, i think it is best to have a very clear and strict definition of "know"... like what is stated above.
else practitioners may get the wrong concept that they know, but actually they are doing dance moves.
and in this deluded state, they teach and propagate a wrong sense of "know"
and things become utterly nonsensical in very quick order
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Re: "Is It In-Line with Yin and Yang?"

Postby windwalker on Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:26 pm

i think it is best to have a very clear and strict definition of "know"... like what is stated above.
else practitioners may get the wrong concept that they know, but actually they are doing dance moves.
and in this deluded state, they teach and propagate a wrong sense of "know"
and things become utterly nonsensical in very quick order


Agree.

In china, when asked if someone knows "understands" something, and they say yes.
Its expected that they can "do"

nothing was left to theory although one may not understand the theory
or even "know" the theory.

they can "do"

if not do, they would be made to feel it,
hopefully taining it until they really "know" it in the sense of doing.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Is It In-Line with Yin and Yang?"

Postby Bao on Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:07 pm

robert wrote:Are you saying that some schools don't teach body mechanics or that they teach different body mechanics?


Do you actually believe that it's possible to teach tai chi without teaching body mechanics? ???
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Re: "Is It In-Line with Yin and Yang?"

Postby robert on Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:59 am

Bao wrote:
robert wrote:Are you saying that some schools don't teach body mechanics or that they teach different body mechanics?


Do you actually believe that it's possible to teach tai chi without teaching body mechanics? ???

It sure seems like there are some schools that only teach choreography. I think that is teaching taiji. If you teach a child to add and subtract you're teaching them mathematics.

The original question was really quite innocent -
Bao wrote:Practically speaking, what is kept still, what is moving and what is separated and how, are the interesting parts. This is where this is different from many other schools.

I'm not trying to be difficult, perhaps I'm just over looking the obvious.

what is kept still, what is moving - isn't this maintaining correct posture? If we look at the beginning of the video in the OP two guys are pushing hands and they don't seem to have any concern about postural requirements. CZH demonstrates correct posture and a common mistake - sticking the butt out. Are you saying that many other schools don't make postural corrections?
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Re: "Is It In-Line with Yin and Yang?"

Postby Bao on Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:05 pm

robert wrote:what is kept still, what is moving - isn't this maintaining correct posture? If we look at the beginning of the video in the OP two guys are pushing hands and they don't seem to have any concern about postural requirements. CZH demonstrates correct posture and a common mistake - sticking the butt out. Are you saying that many other schools don't make postural corrections?


No, I am not speaking about posture. I was referring to what he did practically speaking and he applies what he calls "bu dong", or not move, which is something completely opposite to what several other schools call bu dong. Here, his hand is moving against the point of contact. This what he does is yang against yang. Yin against Yang would be keeping the point of contact still and initiate movement with another part of the body, opposite of what he does. So I don't agree with his notion of separating yin and yang practically speaking.
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Re: "Is It In-Line with Yin and Yang?"

Postby robert on Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:03 pm

OK, thanks.
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Re: "Is It In-Line with Yin and Yang?"

Postby Bodywork on Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:32 am

Strange wrote:His teacher is Hong Junsheng;
Hong is the student that spent the most time with Chen FaKe

I was told by Lui Cheng De that Hong Jun Sheng was most certainly NOT this guy's teacher.
There is no formal photo (even though Joe Chen tried) and Hong had long since retired. He trained under the next generation. They...let him do the book and represent only because he spoke English.
I offer no opinion on his skill level; good, bad or indifferent.
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