Single Hand Push Hands Critique

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Re: Single Hand Push Hands Critique

Postby Bao on Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:33 am

no one is going to be "fighting" by first sticking out their right arms anyway


Exactly, it's a cooperative game.
Free style push hands requires a completely different mind-set. You must dominate your opponent's space as soon as it starts and keep dominating it. You shouldn't give your opponent a slice of opportunity to do anything. You shouldn't exchange give and take, there should only be instantly finding the gaps, fill in and continuing to fill in. The exchange between forces in drills: single, double or four corners, can really develop the wrong habits. If drills resemble the water moving back and forth on the beach, free play should be a flood or tsunami, completely flooding your opponent giving him no room for returning or even to flee.
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Re: Single Hand Push Hands Critique

Postby Trick on Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:18 am

Bao wrote:
Exactly, it's a cooperative game.
Free style push hands requires a completely different mind-set. You must dominate your opponent's space as soon as it starts and keep dominating it. You shouldn't give your opponent a slice of opportunity to do anything. You shouldn't exchange give and take, there should only be instantly finding the gaps, fill in and continuing to fill in. The exchange between forces in drills: single, double or four corners, can really develop the wrong habits. If drills resemble the water moving back and forth on the beach, free play should be a flood or tsunami, completely flooding your opponent giving him no room for returning or even to flee.

Thought you where not into PH competition, or was that someone else on the forum 8-) Did some freestyle single hand PH (Kakie) practice on Okinawa, interesting and fun, but not so much drama.
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Re: Single Hand Push Hands Critique

Postby windwalker on Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:53 am

Trick wrote:
everything wrote:(no one is going to be "fighting" by first sticking out their right arms anyway);

I have no idea how those old lei tai or wathever fights/duels went on, did the duellants first put out their lead arms to touch to begin the fight? Or is that just a Kung fu movie thing.


Image

probably just a kung fu movie thing...
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Re: Single Hand Push Hands Critique

Postby Bao on Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:48 pm

Trick wrote:Thought you where not into PH competition, or was that someone else on the forum 8-) Did some freestyle single hand PH (Kakie) practice on Okinawa, interesting and fun, but not so much drama.


No I am not. Who said I am? I am not speaking about any competitive mode or anything that is against Tai Chi principles.

Ph drill is an exchange between giving and receiving. Free PH should IMO opinion be about to fill in and continue to fill in without gaps. This is a step from PH to free fighting. When you fight, you can not offer your opponent any kind of opportunity. But you must still follow tai chi principles, not going against force, yin against yahng, yang against yin etc, using leverage and smart force, not owerpowering etc.

If you don't understand my philosophy you can read more about my free PH strategy here, I've summed up five important points: https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... -strategy/
Last edited by Bao on Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Single Hand Push Hands Critique

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:20 pm

I have said this several times here
Tai chi skill is passed on literally from hand to hand
This is the first purpose of single hand
Do you start TKD with a jumping spinning back kick
Dan Innosanto teaches a lot of drills with right hands meeting in either an upper or lower chamber
They develop from there
Sinawalies in FMA are repetitious and not directly combat realistic
It is training
Think of the circle or the exercise being Wu chi
It is only when yin or yang is added does it become tai chi
The point is to recognise that and return to Wu chi with as little time and effort possible
The straight sword is used in that manner like a pushing hands partner
It is not whether each move is directly applicable and street ready it is training
Saying that I remember showing an Illustrismo black belt how I applied it with a knife and he was blown out
A teacher once said
Don't think everything you need is in the 108 but don't think it doesn't lead there
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Single Hand Push Hands Critique

Postby Bao on Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:33 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Think of the circle or the exercise being Wu chi
It is only when yin or yang is added does it become tai chi
The point is to recognise that and return to Wu chi with as little time and effort possible


I liked that explanation very much.
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Re: Single Hand Push Hands Critique

Postby daniel pfister on Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:43 pm

wayne hansen wrote:There are no points to refute because it all comes from your Shen fa
Just the fact you were never taught something you are demonstrating and discussing says it all
In the other clip you were doing the ward off roll press push exercise
That had just as many mistakes in it as the one you are doing here


Perhaps you could just think of what I'm showing as a bad example of SHP, that was kind of my intent. I'm still waiting to hear what exactly I should do differently. If you think my shenfa sucks from watching the video, you should also be able to describe in words what is wrong with it. How is saying I don't know what I'm doing and telling me to find a good teacher helpful at all if you haven't provided any ideas about what a good teacher might be instead?

I hear this kind of criticism a lot. "That's not the way my teacher did it, so it's wrong, and you don't know what you're doing." We need to be able to talk about and refine what it is we are doing in IMA, so we can honestly assess whether certain training practices are effective or not.
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Re: Single Hand Push Hands Critique

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:54 pm

When I say something about a post that is put up I am not always addressing the poster
I am just putting up a point of view
Not knowing who will get something out of it
Mainly I am posting for those who are at the start of their journey
There is so much wrong info out there others need to speak
As for pointing out where you have got it wrong ,why would I
If someone came up to me in person and said as you have
I don't practice this but here are my reasons why it is wrong
Do you think I would teach them
The number of years you have been training you shoul have it by now
If you don't ,what difference would me talking over the net make
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Single Hand Push Hands Critique

Postby cgtomash on Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:08 pm

daniel pfister wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:There are no points to refute because it all comes from your Shen fa
Just the fact you were never taught something you are demonstrating and discussing says it all
In the other clip you were doing the ward off roll press push exercise
That had just as many mistakes in it as the one you are doing here


Perhaps you could just think of what I'm showing as a bad example of SHP, that was kind of my intent. I'm still waiting to hear what exactly I should do differently. If you think my shenfa sucks from watching the video, you should also be able to describe in words what is wrong with it. How is saying I don't know what I'm doing and telling me to find a good teacher helpful at all if you haven't provided any ideas about what a good teacher might be instead?

I hear this kind of criticism a lot. "That's not the way my teacher did it, so it's wrong, and you don't know what you're doing." We need to be able to talk about and refine what it is we are doing in IMA, so we can honestly assess whether certain training practices are effective or not.


Daniel,

If I recall on your "Push Hands Demo" video you mentioned that you find the traditional method of Single Hand Pushing to be: "boring and useless, so I don't do it". Just this statement alone suggests to me that you have a very shallow understanding of the traditional methods for Single Push Hands, part of which is the way that Wayne Hansen has described the exercise. I would suggest as Wayne did, to find a teacher (which are few) that can show you the intricacies of this traditional exercise. It is not simply rocking back and forth as you make circles with your hands, but something entirely different.

I understand that the different traditional styles of Tai Chi Chuan, and even individual masters may vary the way the exercise is done. However, all work to follow the principles of Tai Chi Chuan to guide the body movement. The applications come from the principles, rather than trying to make principles fit application. This exercise works to reinforce those principles of movement, which over time and much work will result in the practitioner having "Tai Chi Shenfa". This Shenfa has a different quality to it than the Shenfa of other Kung Fu styles.

In regards to your Shenfa, what I notice is as the weight shifts back and forth, it seems to be more of a rocking back and forth motion rather than drawing the weight back and forth and pouring the weight down the body through the legs into the ground. With time this helps being Sung, which helps one to move forward and back (or any direction) while maintaining central equilibrium. Your hands (arms), although they are moving in time with the waist, appear to be separate from the waist. The arms (and the legs) seem to be not driven by the dantien, I also do not see very much (if any) open/close releasing in the spine, legs, and arms. These are all things that the traditional methods of Single Hand Pushing help to train.

I hope you see this as more of a critique based on my experience of Tai Chi Chuan, rather than any kind of attack. I also realize that many times what is seen, is quite different than what one might feel when people get to touch hands. Maybe one day we can touch hands and explore Tai Chi deeper together!
Last edited by cgtomash on Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:15 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Single Hand Push Hands Critique

Postby cloudz on Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:09 am

wayne hansen wrote:Cloudz I am being constructive
It is a thing he says he does not practice so it is hard to give detailed instruction
The things he is saying don't work,don't work because of the way he is doing them.
Give me half an hour with him and I could show him physically but it not possible over the net
That is why I told him find a good teacher
I was honestly trying to help
Too many people seem to be running from teacher to teacher and style to style
Never letting the tea leaves settle
Sorry if I offended him that was not my intention



Fair enough, it was just you mentioned the root of the problem, as you saw it, was about the way he was using the body. I just thought maybe you could elaborate on one or two things to give an idea of what you were seeing. But no worries. I get it. Sometimes it is too hard on the net. Though I'd like to hear a bit more and maybe learn something, I can respect and understand that. Thanks for your reply, I know you're trying to help us :)
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Re: Single Hand Push Hands Critique

Postby Trick on Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:33 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:Thought you where not into PH competition, or was that someone else on the forum 8-) Did some freestyle single hand PH (Kakie) practice on Okinawa, interesting and fun, but not so much drama.


No I am not. Who said I am? I am not speaking about any competitive mode or anything that is against Tai Chi principles.

Ph drill is an exchange between giving and receiving. Free PH should IMO opinion be about to fill in and continue to fill in without gaps. This is a step from PH to free fighting. When you fight, you can not offer your opponent any kind of opportunity. But you must still follow tai chi principles, not going against force, yin against yahng, yang against yin etc, using leverage and smart force, not owerpowering etc.

If you don't understand my philosophy you can read more about my free PH strategy here, I've summed up five important points: https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... -strategy/

o I am not. Who said I am? I am not speaking about any competitive mode or anything that is against Tai Chi principles.

Ph drill is an exchange between giving and receiving. Free PH should IMO opinion be about to fill in and continue to fill in without gaps. This is a step from PH to free fighting. When you fight, you can not offer your opponent any kind of opportunity. But you must still follow tai chi principles, not going against force, yin against yahng, yang against yin etc, using leverage and smart force, not owerpowering etc.

If you don't understand my philosophy you can read more about my free PH strategy here, I've summed up five important points: https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... -strategy/[/quote] Thanks Bao, but stop reading after just a couple of sentences talking about ' real masters knowledge'. However I think you would fare well in at least PH competition with your real masters knowledge. I myself sometimes do free push hand practice with my TJQ teacher, he think joining free hand PH competition is a good idea, I have been thinking about that, but I do not really have that fighters mind, so I definitely refused my XYQ teachers suggestion to try it out in sanda. 8-)
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Re: Single Hand Push Hands Critique

Postby Bao on Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:32 am

Trick wrote:Thanks Bao, but stop reading after just a couple of sentences talking about ' real masters knowledge'. However I think you would fare well in at least PH competition with your real masters knowledge. I myself sometimes do free push hand practice with my TJQ teacher, he think joining free hand PH competition is a good idea, I have been thinking about that, but I do not really have that fighters mind, so I definitely refused my XYQ teachers suggestion to try it out in sanda. 8-)


Forget about the fancy talk about masters then. That's more a kind of marketing and branding persona showing off. :P That's what I do for a living, marketing stuff. Masters talk is just something to draw attention, many people like that kind of crap. However, the points are all practical advices, take them or leave them.

Well, I don't have the same experience of the old masters or the amount of skill. I like free PH as a friendly and semi-cooperative game. Competing has never been my cup of tea. But I would probably do ok. I've never claimed any skill of any sort. I am more a kind of an explorer and I like discussing things. Sorry if my way of expressing myself annoys you. :P
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Re: Single Hand Push Hands Critique

Postby cloudz on Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:58 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:Thought you where not into PH competition, or was that someone else on the forum 8-) Did some freestyle single hand PH (Kakie) practice on Okinawa, interesting and fun, but not so much drama.


No I am not. Who said I am? I am not speaking about any competitive mode or anything that is against Tai Chi principles.



So any kind of competitive practice with another human being like sparring for example is against TCC principles?
It sounds like you just said that...
Sorry but that's such a stupid thing to say. Mine that out of the classics did you ? It's HOW you 'compete' that principles speak to, a particular strategy that's designed for succesful outcome still. If there's no 'competing' of some kind there's nothing to do or be done, nothing to evade defend blend with nothing to counter, no need for TCC at all.

If someone attacks you or you get into some fight somewhere somehow. do you really beleive you are not competing in some way over something. You are.
But let's not rake over the principles and strategy of TCC. I think we're both familiar enough..
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:29 am, edited 4 times in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: Single Hand Push Hands Critique

Postby Bao on Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:17 am

cloudz wrote:So any kind of competitive practice with another human being like sparring for example is against TCC principles?
It sounds like you just said that...
Sorry but that's such a stupid thing to say. Mine that out of the classics did you ? It's HOW you 'compete' that principles speak to, a particular strategy that's designed for succesful outcome still. If there's no 'competing' of some kind there's nothing to do or be done, nothing to evade defend blend with nothing to counter, no need for TCC at all.

If someone attacks you or you get into some fight somewhere somehow. do you really beleive you are not competing in some way over something. You are.
But let's not rake over the principles and strategy of TCC. I think we're both familiar enough..


Oh my, I must express myself very bad lately... :(

And apparently, my ability to comprehend things is bad as well, don't understand what you mean. I know things I said could sound like competing. I didn't mean so. You can either adapt and follow gaps without letting someone be able to regain balance or have a chance to counter. This is not competitive mode, this is following and continuing to fill in the gaps without interruption.

If someone punch at your face, and you evade his right fist with your left hand, at the same time you can put your right hand on his his left arm or on his chest or shoulder and fill in the horizontal movement of his body. If he try to be steady, he will loose balance. Or you can go in and trip him, or you can follow his movement to retreat, trapping him. If he tries to gain balance again, you trip and push him down and strike him. Or you can trip or you can throw. This is following, following and continue to follow until he has no escape. You can easily finish him off. You can finish him sooner or later. Following and take advantage of his own movement this way takes literary no effort. There is no competitive mind-set, there is no effort, no anger, no nothing. You just fill in and continue to fill in like a flood.

You can play free PH in a similar way. It's your partner who should find solutions and do his best to defend himself from not be flooded. But in a completely cooperative PH free play, when someone lose balance, you usually let him regain balance and invite him to try something on you. This is more of an exchange and letting him have a chance to keep some dignity if the skill levels are too unequal. This can also be two of equal skill who try to help each other solving problems and come up with solutions. But if you want a more realistic mind-set, you should not give him any kind of chance of doing anything. This is to cut off his chances as soon as he start to move and to adapt to even the slightest movement he does. It's done by following and adapting to his movement and fill in, nothing else.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Single Hand Push Hands Critique

Postby cloudz on Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:53 am

yea, it sounds like I may have read it out of context then. text can be tricky!!
thanks for explaining. as free pushing had been brought up I guess i naturally assumed you meant competition, competing in the standard sense. whether formal competition or not..
Maybe contending or butting as in force on force would have worked, but no worries. Miscommunications are part and parcel of online discussions.

What you're describing I think has merits, being aggresive in taking control of the engagement can work well. And yes I agree when training it's helpful to use levels of cooperation to explore things and learn things, up to and including fully uncooperative. Like actual competition, though it's very hard to replicate the intensity of the real thing.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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