Aikido v mma

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Re: Aikido v mma

Postby Franklin on Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:12 am

good concepts in aikido
at least what i learned of it..

control the distance
footwork had 2 components- entering , turning

and either invite the opponent to enter in the opening that you leave for him
or do something to entice a response from him and use that..

people use these things in the ring all the time..
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Re: Aikido v mma

Postby marvin8 on Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:51 am

Formosa Neijia wrote:This is completely doomed to failure right from the start. Look at Jason Delucia. A 5-animal kungfu guy who fought and lost in the early UFCs to Royce Gracie. He went on to fight Pancrasse in Japan and racked up an impressive fight record. He eventually come out with his version of "combat aikido" that blended aikido with MMA inclduing sparring. I swear, his videos are straight-up fighting baguazhang if anything on video is. I highly recommending downloading this series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR43VgkT_GI

Thing is, he was completely dismissed by the aikido community who only wanted to know two things: what his belt rank was and who his "master" was. They cared absolutely nothing about his fight record or his skills. In fact, those seemed to be a huge negative in that community. Epicly pathetic.

The MMA crowd completely dismissed him as a "loser" because he lost to Royce twice, as if losing to one of the best in the world at that time made you a loser. So Jason's efforts went absolutely no where, just where this guy's efforts in these new clips is likely to go.

Traditional arts are just dead. They have and will continue to refuse every effort to change because they are incapable of change. The traditional power structure of arts like aikido and taichi insulate themselves from the disaster of their obvious flaws. This makes the efforts of reformers like Delucia a complete waste of time. Better to just do something new and go off on your own.

I watched Jason's "combat aikido" series and some of his fights. I did not see Jason use any of the moves, he demonstrated in his videos, in his fights. Here is one of his fights.
OfficialBasRutten on Sep 1, 2014 wrote:
This video is Fight #22 vs. Jason Delucia from Bas Rutten's MMA Career DVD previously only available for purchase.

As a professional fighter, one of his favorite tactics was the liver shot (both punch and kick), and he popularized its use in MMA.Rutten is known for his charisma and has capitalized on his celebrity status since retiring from fighting in 1999. He workes as a color commentator in MMA organization WSOF, and every Friday at IMMA at AX.tv , he has appeared in numerous television shows, movies, and video games. He also coaches MMA and has authored several instructional materials:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXPF2oShAME

Jason had a better chance than Rokas (at least a 2nd degree black belt) to show aikido works in a real fight. Since, Jason had more training in the striking arts. However, he failed to do that.

Based on that, I think Rokas will have a difficult time showing aikido works in a real mma competition, if that is what he really wants to do.
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Re: Aikido v mma

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:41 pm

He talks about the lack of reality in aikido attacks then he has to step in to reach his opponents jabs
He should either do it in real sparring or at least the jabs should reach his face without him moving in
If he is a brown belt like it says why is he wearing a black belt
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Re: Aikido v mma

Postby Ron Panunto on Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:57 pm

wayne hansen wrote:If he is a brown belt like it says why is he wearing a black belt


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Re: Aikido v mma

Postby Formosa Neijia on Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:53 pm

marvin8 wrote:I watched Jason's "combat aikido" series and some of his fights. I did not see Jason use any of the moves, he demonstrated in his videos, in his fights.


Delucia's style evolved over the years. He started in arts like five animal kungfu and then fought the Gracies in the early 90's. He then started competing in Japan in Pancrase. The aikido series didn't come out until the mid-2000's. I followed it at the time and Delucia clearly was aiming it at the aikido community by trying to show them how to combine what they were doing with his MMA experience. Delucia had stopped competing for years by the time the videos came out.

His fight against Bas that you posted was their rematch I think. Bas was of course highly skilled and they hated each other so I wouldn't look at this or any specific fight to see proof of Delucia's combat aikido, especially since he developed that later for the aikido crowd.

More interesting to me was the response of the entire aikido community. Several people said they wouldn't even watch the Youtube clips unless Delucia stated his belt rank and master's name. A guy with 50+ fights who had fought Royce twice in the ring meant absolutely nothing to them compared to whatever dan rank they considered important and his lack of a huge belly flopping over that belt also likely didn't sit well with them.
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Re: Aikido v mma

Postby marvin8 on Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:08 pm

Formosa Neijia wrote:
marvin8 wrote:I watched Jason's "combat aikido" series and some of his fights. I did not see Jason use any of the moves, he demonstrated in his videos, in his fights.


Delucia's style evolved over the years. He started in arts like five animal kungfu and then fought the Gracies in the early 90's. He then started competing in Japan in Pancrase. The aikido series didn't come out until the mid-2000's. I followed it at the time and Delucia clearly was aiming it at the aikido community by trying to show them how to combine what they were doing with his MMA experience. Delucia had stopped competing for years by the time the videos came out.

His fight against Bas that you posted was their rematch I think. Bas was of course highly skilled and they hated each other so I wouldn't look at this or any specific fight to see proof of Delucia's combat aikido, especially since he developed that later for the aikido crowd.

More interesting to me was the response of the entire aikido community. Several people said they wouldn't even watch the Youtube clips unless Delucia stated his belt rank and master's name. A guy with 50+ fights who had fought Royce twice in the ring meant absolutely nothing to them compared to whatever dan rank they considered important and his lack of a huge belly flopping over that belt also likely didn't sit well with them.

Yes, I realized that after I posted. I believe he is teaching an art called Hybrid Fighting, now. I saw some competition videos, but don't know if those are his students.

If you're talking about the aikido community, I didn't realize aikido was so political. I am only interested in the end product, aikido and five animal kungfu working in a real fight.
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Re: Aikido v mma

Postby marvin8 on Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:15 pm

wayne hansen wrote:He talks about the lack of reality in aikido attacks then he has to step in to reach his opponents jabs
He should either do it in real sparring or at least the jabs should reach his face without him moving in
If he is a brown belt like it says why is he wearing a black belt

No. @ 1:44 Rokas says, "Well he (opponent) is not a brown belt or black belt. No boxing. . . . " Rokas is at least a 2nd degree black belt, I believe. Rokas wanted to test himself against an untrained person. I don't know why (the untrained person) and don't think that was much of a test to film study himself. Although, he should do some technical sparring and work on specific entries, footwork, techniques, etc.

Subitai wrote:UUUGGGHH....Style vs style ??? Is this the 90's again?

Knowing your enemy or at least some basic understanding is important. Essentially it wasn't even remotely fair, it's as if he just got his basic drivers license and then thinks he's going to race Nascar on and REAL TRACK.

*Nobody does that, not without preparation. I could help this guy in one day if he were at my school. How could he hope to enter the MMA ring unless he prepared a bit with someone who has actually fought in there?

Maybe he was over confident with 13 years in Aikido. He tested himself and should have been able to review the film, figure out his and aikido's weaknesses and improve. His last sparring posted in this thread wasn't challenging enough.

Subitai wrote:It's not the fault of Aikido...it's not about which style is better. After all MMA just means Mixed Martial Arts...and often times that is a mixture of Traditional Martial Arts skills as well.

Plenty of MMA fighters who know how to set up stuff that is considered more "Traditional". So style is not the issue...the individual's experience, toughness, heart and YES, AS WE'RE ALWAYS SAYING...THE SET UP. :)

Not that I need to hear him say it (cause it was obvious) but whence he said "it was his 1st time in the ring" that pretty much says it all.

I agree. i don't believe he discussed what he learned from the first sparring, what adjustments he made, what skills and what drills he has been working on to overcome his weaknesses. I don't see him talking about the principles and concepts of Aikido. Then, using those to come up with set ups or entries. He should be drilling (solo and partner) aikido entries (e.g., footwork) and discussing them with his viewers. (However, I have not watched all the videos he posted.) Jason Delucia covered aikido principles, footwork and entries better in his video series linked in this thread.

Subitai wrote:More importantly, he went into the ring UN familiar with boxing...which is universally THE MODERN BASE you need to understand if you want to fight.

More over, IMO...if he really wanted to test his style up to what he had been learning (which doesn't train for the ring) more accurately as an experiment. HE should do LIVE Self Defense senarios 1st. He could get a LIVE Opponent to attempt to run up to him and steal his brief case. Fight off a guy, pretending to be a kidnapper trying to pull you into a van. (I know it sounds silly) Get 3 or more guys to be like the gypsies who all jump on you at once to pin you down and try to steal your wallet.

He has since posted a boxing drill video, which showed he doesn't understand the principles and correct technique. He needs to find a real boxing coach, learn, drill, etc.

His first sparring video already has 1.7 million views within 10 months. Because of all that, I question Rokas' sincerity in making aikido work in a fight, as opposed to just trying to get views and making money.
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Re: Aikido v mma

Postby Formosa Neijia on Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:33 pm

marvin8 wrote:Yes, I realized that after I posted. I believe he is teaching an art called Hybrid Fighting, now. I saw some competition videos, but don't know if those are his students.

If you're talking about the aikido community, I didn't realize aikido was so political. I am only interested in the end product, aikido and five animal kungfu working in a real fight.


I understand your interest and share it to some extent. That's why I'm pointing out the culture of the aikido community which will go out of it's way to suppress and even destroy the efforts of individuals that want to actually use arts like aikido in MMA. Again, you must understand how insular the aikido community is and how everyone in that community rose to their current ranks, and it ain't by fighting. Efforts like Delucia's and this new guy's go completely against the path of <cough, cough> "success" in aikido. This means that the more people like Delucia succeed, the more it embarrasses the established community because they can't do any of that and the more they will destroy the efforts of the aikidoka trying to use aikido in MMA. "Fighting aikido" would be an alternate path of success that would destroy the establishment. It will be fought tooth and nail.

How interested would you be in proving an art like aikido is useful in MMA when all your efforts are derided and dismissed by your entire martial arts community? Think about it. How many injuries are you gonna take to prove that an art is useful in the ring when the ankle-biters will shut you down at every turn?
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Re: Aikido v mma

Postby marvin8 on Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:37 am

A little more realistic testing.

AikidoSiauliai
Published on Mar 29, 2018

How do you know your Aikido works if you have never pressure tested with an alive resisting partner? Many people say that Aikido is Bullshido and I am tired of aikidoka keep giving excuses and trying to explain why Aikido would work, but nobody shows it.

This video is a response to a video I filmed called: Aikido Fail | Failed New Aikido Technique, where me and my fighting coach tried to create an effective version of an Aikido technique and it did not work out. You can find the video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtu4E...

Then, as always many aikidoka got upset and tried to explain what we did wrong and how they would do it right. Well, it's time to prove that your aikido works, I challenge you. Send me an aikido video where you show that aikido is not bullshido, that you are able to do the technique with a live resisting partner. . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEQGQn8Yv2U

AikidoSiauliai
Published on Mar 28, 2018

Me and my self defense coach Marius Tubis looked at one traditional Aikido technique called Irimi Nage and tried to adapt it to a practical application. While the technique was quite effective to a certain standard, we weren't happy about the end result since it was still a fairly low percentage technique and not enough to our standard. That is why we decided that this "New Aikido Technique" was a fail.

One of the Aikido techniques that we tried to make effective is called Irimi Nage. It is an entering Aikido technique, yet while it works in theory we realized it is a failed Aikido technique as far as real application goes, specially against a trained fighter. . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtu4EQPlzEY
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Re: Aikido v mma

Postby wiesiek on Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:41 am

even the most >exotic< technique may work
just
>Opportunity window" usage splits good and mediocre fighters
joyful usefullnes of the effords
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Re: Aikido v mma

Postby RobP3 on Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:46 am

marvin8 wrote:One of the Aikido techniques that we tried to make effective is called Irimi Nage. It is an entering Aikido technique, yet while it works in theory we realized it is a failed Aikido technique as far as real application goes, specially against a trained fighter. . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtu4EQPlzEY


Hmm. That's not how I'd set it up and it would work better if he led with the other foot. This "testing technique" approach is ok but...there are a lot of buts :)
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Re: Aikido v mma

Postby middleway on Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:46 am

I like this guy. He is being honest with himself which is a great first step.
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Re: Aikido v mma

Postby marvin8 on Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:49 pm

middleway wrote:I like this guy. He is being honest with himself which is a great first step.

I agree. This last testing was more realistic than the one against the untrained fighter—where Rokas was surprised he did so well. I like Marius' review. However IMO, the technique was not explored enough.

RobP3 wrote:
marvin8 wrote:One of the Aikido techniques that we tried to make effective is called Irimi Nage. It is an entering Aikido technique, yet while it works in theory we realized it is a failed Aikido technique as far as real application goes, specially against a trained fighter. . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtu4EQPlzEY


Hmm. That's not how I'd set it up and it would work better if he led with the other foot. This "testing technique" approach is ok but...there are a lot of buts :)

Yes. I believe Marius should have used the other arm and leg to complete the clothesline throw (closer to than irimi nage).

Marius failed to get the opponent double weighted (unable to change) before attempting the throw. Most trained fighters are balanced and aligned in their techniques. However, their movements can be timed. As Marius chased the opponent's neck, the opponent was able to punch and back, pivot, or circle out of Marius' grasp.

Throws are more successful with deceptive/controlling footwork (e.g., change in speed, length, direction, broken rhythm, etc.), position and timing.

At 2:37, Dan attacks by drawing: takes slow, baby steps back then quickly lunges forward with a large step finishing throw.

CatchJitsu.com
Published on Feb 20, 2018:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADdpxzLv_0E&t=2m37s

Here Lyoto Machida completes the wedge or scoop throw. This is a different throw. However, it demonstrates the footwork to perform it.

Machida attacks by drawing: takes slow, baby steps back then quickly lunges forward with a large step finishing throw. Notice opponent's feet are parallel, as Machida makes contact with timing.
Image

Here Lyoto Machida completes the same throw.

Marcelo Brito
Published on Jul 26, 2011
One of Lyoto Machida's Ippons in the Regional Karate Championship in Fortaleza-CE, 2001:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9lOmBHi1Do

Here Akiyama completes osoto gari by taking slow, baby steps forward then quickly lunges forward with a large step finishing throw using timing.

Unusual Strikes & Submissions
Published on Jan 29, 2017:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRAw4ePnQM4
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Re: Aikido v mma

Postby RobP3 on Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:36 am

middleway wrote:I like this guy. He is being honest with himself which is a great first step.


I agree. But for the "testing technique" approach, it's better if your partner doesn't know in advance which technique you will be testing :)
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Re: Aikido v mma

Postby marvin8 on Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:41 am

RobP3 wrote:
middleway wrote:I like this guy. He is being honest with himself which is a great first step.


I agree. But for the "testing technique" approach, it's better if your partner doesn't know in advance which technique you will be testing :)

In the last testing, the partner did not "know in advance which technique" Marius was using. At 8:25:
Marius wrote:So, today we tried it with another person that was completely unaware of technique at all. He was a friend of mine. And, he did train a little bit of muay thai for a few years. Distance was something he (friend) was aware of. He wasn’t putting too much bodyweight behind his punches (balanced, not overextended). He was more technical than the average person.
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