Aikido v mma

A collection of links to internal martial arts videos. Serious martial arts videos ONLY. Joke videos go to Off the Topic.

Re: Aikido v mma

Postby Steve James on Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:25 am

Well, watching the Bas/Jason bout, it's clear that Bas had a basic system: hit the liver. It's fundamental strategy in ordinary western boxing. It doesn't matter whether the practitioner does aikido or anything else. This takes nothing away from the "aikido" guy's guts or ability.

I'm sure that aikidokas who actually try to compete with other martial artists also have a strategy. Usually, I'd associate that with a throw of some kind. But, I'm just a casual observer. All I know is that because the boxer's goal is clear, he or she can then set it up. When it ends up hitting the opponent at the desired spot, that's how you know it worked. Likewise, for the aikidoka. Sure, in a competition, an aikidoka might kick his opponent unconscious; but, if it wasn't aikido, he wouldn't care when his hand was raised.

Ya gotta admit that studying aikido doesn't meant that a person can't fight or win against someone who doesn't study aikido (or, does mma). So, I don't really understand the argument. It'd be interesting to hear specifics on techniques fundamental to aikido that could be useful in general. The nice thing about wing chun and some other martial arts is that a person can walk out of the first class with something he can use, whether a principle or a technique. He might not be good at it; but, he'll have a better chance.

Anyway, mma is primarily associated with (the addition of) grappling, specifically bjj. Do the bjj guys here think that they incorporate aikido principles? Is aikido seemingly less effective (or questionably so) because, unlike judo, it does not emphasize competition?
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 16780
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Aikido v mma

Postby marvin8 on Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:51 pm

Steve James wrote:Ya gotta admit that studying aikido doesn't meant that a person can't fight or win against someone who doesn't study aikido (or, does mma). So, I don't really understand the argument.

Why does one have to admit that?

Per Rokas and his tests (one in the OP video), "the argument" is most traditional aikido practice does not develop effective self defense skills. Rokas says he is not the best or worst. But, he represents most aikidoka and their traditional practice.

Steve James wrote:It'd be interesting to hear specifics on techniques fundamental to aikido that could be useful in general.

Contrary to Rokas' and Marius' testing, Irimi nage may be one—deduced from the videos I posted of Dan demonstrating irimi nage and the throws done with footwork in MMA.

Steve James wrote:The nice thing about wing chun and some other martial arts is that a person can walk out of the first class with something he can use, whether a principle or a technique. He might not be good at it; but, he'll have a better chance.

The 4th generation Ip Man wing chun master could not "use" much against Xu.

Steve James wrote:Anyway, mma is primarily associated with (the addition of) grappling, specifically bjj. Do the bjj guys here think that they incorporate aikido principles? Is aikido seemingly less effective (or questionably so) because, unlike judo, it does not emphasize competition?


Per this Rokas and Dan video, aikido is "less effective" when practiced with the step lunge punch (opponent does not retract punch) and without some real, aggressive attacks and pressure testing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tugYPl7W9E
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Aikido v mma

Postby Steve James on Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:07 pm

Why does one have to admit that?


Because it's obvious. The guy in the video is an example; win or lose.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 16780
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Aikido v mma

Postby marvin8 on Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:01 pm

Steve James wrote:Ya gotta admit that studying aikido doesn't meant that a person can't fight or win against someone who doesn't study aikido (or, does mma). So, I don't really understand the argument.

Steve James wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Why does one have to admit that?


Because it's obvious. The guy in the video is an example; win or lose.

Per Rokas, it does mean that. He "couldn't win against a MMA" person, because of his studying only aikido (13 years).

That is the subject of his series of videos; to modernize aikido to be effective for self defense.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Aikido v mma

Postby Steve James on Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:07 am

Per Rokas, it does mean that. He "couldn't win against a MMA" person, because of his studying only aikido (13 years).


I never said anything about only studying aikido. I said that studying aikido didn't prevent anyone from learning how to fight. It doesn't mean that someone who's studied aikido can't learn to kick or punch or grapple on the ground. No big deal.

Adapting aikido to mma, imo, is no different than adapting stand up wrestling to mma or boxing. There's no need to adjust; just do it. Like I said, I don't do aikido; but, I'm not sure that many train it in order to practice sport mma. For that, they practice sport mma. If they can use aikido principles or techniques --even though we know that small joint manipulation is prohibited-- that's wonderful. If not, they will end up doing what everybody else who's successful does. He's not going to get away with punching less, or kicking less, or working on his ground game less than other competitors.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 16780
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Aikido v mma

Postby marvin8 on Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:47 am

Steve James wrote:Ya gotta admit that studying aikido doesn't meant that a person can't fight or win against someone who doesn't study aikido (or, does mma). So, I don't really understand the argument.

Steve James wrote:
Per Rokas, it does mean that. He "couldn't win against a MMA" person, because of his studying only aikido (13 years).


I never said anything about only studying aikido. I said that studying aikido didn't prevent anyone from learning how to fight. It doesn't mean that someone who's studied aikido can't learn to kick or punch or grapple on the ground. No big deal.

You said "studying aikido doesn't meant that a person can't fight." You said, you didn't "really understand the argument (Rokas')."

You did not say, "studying aikido didn't prevent anyone from learning how to fight." Those are two different statememts/meanings. If that is what you meant, than it was misunderstood.

At 3:08, Rokas says aikido did not prepare him to effectively defend himself:
Rokas wrote:I felt always not sure about what will I do. There was such a big gap between my aikido and those street situations—where as you said you had a backup plan (other MA training). You know you could handle them If that came to be. And then, you can use aikido, For me it was like crap, how do I make sure I use this tiny bit of limited practice that I have. So yeah, that issue I have definitely experienced it:



Steve James wrote:Adapting aikido to mma, imo, is no different than adapting stand up wrestling to mma or boxing. There's no need to adjust; just do it. Like I said, I don't do aikido; but, I'm not sure that many train it in order to practice sport mma. For that, they practice sport mma. If they can use aikido principles or techniques --even though we know that small joint manipulation is prohibited-- that's wonderful. If not, they will end up doing what everybody else who's successful does. He's not going to get away with punching less, or kicking less, or working on his ground game less than other competitors.

You are entitled to a different opinion.

Since you said you didn't "really understand the argument," I explainied Rokas' "argument—" that aikido has to be modernized for traditional aikidoka to effectively defend themselves.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Aikido v mma

Postby Steve James on Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:07 am

I wrote:
Ya gotta admit that studying aikido doesn't meant that a person can't fight or win against someone who doesn't study aikido (or, does mma). So, I don't really understand the argument.


I was referring to the Bas Ruten video. The other guy studied aikido, but he slapped and kicked because those were the rules of the contest. I don't understand why it's important to use it as an aikido v mma contest, or why (if it is) offered as an example that an aikidoka can't fight.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 16780
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Aikido v mma

Postby marvin8 on Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:38 am

Steve James wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Why does one have to admit that?


Because it's obvious. The guy in the video is an example; win or lose.

Steve James wrote:I wrote:
Ya gotta admit that studying aikido doesn't meant that a person can't fight or win against someone who doesn't study aikido (or, does mma). So, I don't really understand the argument.


I was referring to the Bas Ruten video. The other guy studied aikido, but he slapped and kicked because those were the rules of the contest.

Jason Delucia was the other guy in the Bas Ruten video. Jason is not an example either. Because besides aikido, Jason studied kicking, punching, etc. via Five Animals style, Taekwondo and, later in his MMA career, Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

Steve James wrote:I don't understand why it's important to use it as an aikido v mma contest, or why (if it is) offered as an example that an aikidoka can't fight.

"MMA contest" is only one way. Per Rokas and Dan, it important to test against aggressive pressure whether through MMA, sparring or drills. Dan explains this from 7:08 to 8:30:

Per Rokas if aikidoka fail pressure testing, they should question their traditional practice. Rokas is going through this process and plans to offer solutions to the traditional aikido practice.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Aikido v mma

Postby Steve James on Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:49 pm

Jason is not an example either. Because besides aikido, Jason studied kicking, punching, etc. via Five Animals style, Taekwondo and, later in his MMA career, Gracie Jiu Jitsu.


That was my point.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 16780
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Aikido v mma

Postby marvin8 on Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:05 pm

Steve James wrote:
Jason is not an example either. Because besides aikido, Jason studied kicking, punching, etc. via Five Animals style, Taekwondo and, later in his MMA career, Gracie Jiu Jitsu.


That was my point.

It seems you disagree with Rokas' observations as you repeat, "I don't understand." But, it's still unclear to me.

Steve James wrote:Ya gotta admit that studying aikido doesn't meant that a person can't fight or win against someone who doesn't study aikido (or, does mma). So, I don't really understand the argument.

marvin8 wrote:Per Rokas and his tests (one in the OP video), "the argument" is most traditional aikido practice does not develop effective self defense skills. . . .

Per Rokas, it does mean that. He "couldn't win against a MMA" person, because of his studying only aikido (13 years).

Do you agree with the "argument" that only studying traditional aikido is not enough to effectively defend oneself?

marvin8 wrote:
Steve James wrote:I don't understand why it's important to use it as an aikido v mma contest, or why (if it is) offered as an example that an aikidoka can't fight.

"MMA contest" is only one way. Per Rokas and Dan, it important to test against aggressive pressure whether through MMA, sparring or drills. Dan explains this from 7:08 to 8:30:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tugYPl7W9E&t=7m8s

How would you suggest to pressure test aikido, if "important?"
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Aikido v mma

Postby Steve James on Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:56 pm

Do you agree with the "argument" that only studying traditional aikido is not enough to effectively defend oneself?


Do you mean on the street or in the ring? Assuming that we're talking about the latter, and that the ring means an mma competition, then yes. If one wants to compete at mma, one will end up doing mma -no matter what the base art was.
Otoh, do I think that Steven Segal, for eg., is able to defend himself using "only" aikido, yes. Will he win if his opponent thai kicks him while staying out of range, I dunno.

But, here's what I don't understand. What's the point of comparing aikido to mma? Why not boxing? or karate? Secondly, imo, if someone adds kicking and punching to aikido, why is it still aikido? Why is what Jason Deluca did not aikido?

How would you suggest to pressure test aikido, if "important?"


The same way I'd test tcc. However, that's just sport and fun. But, entering open competitions is fine for youngsters. Step into the ring and find out what's necessary. I'd say that if you want to compete with someone who can do X, you should be able to do X as well.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 16780
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Aikido v mma

Postby marvin8 on Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:22 am

Steve James wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Do you agree with the "argument" that only studying traditional aikido is not enough to effectively defend oneself?


Do you mean on the street or in the ring? Assuming that we're talking about the latter, and that the ring means an mma competition, then yes. If one wants to compete at mma, one will end up doing mma -no matter what the base art was.
Otoh, do I think that Steven Segal, for eg., is able to defend himself using "only" aikido, yes. Will he win if his opponent thai kicks him while staying out of range, I dunno.

But, here's what I don't understand. What's the point of comparing aikido to mma? Why not boxing? or karate? Secondly, imo, if someone adds kicking and punching to aikido, why is it still aikido? Why is what Jason Deluca did not aikido?

Both. Good points. Yes. Aikido by itself limits offense and combinations. I am not an aikido practitioner. So, I can't say what it has or had in the art.

Rokas is not making comparisons. He is testing against trained fighters. MMA is one of them. I don't know how much Rokas wants to change aikido. If you add kicks and punches, I would think you would drop the name aikido. That is what Jason did. I believe now, Jason teaches Hybrid Fighting, which is a combination of aikido, kicking, punching, etc. But, I can't speak for appropriateness.

Steve James wrote:
marvin8 wrote:How would you suggest to pressure test aikido, if "important?"

The same way I'd test tcc. However, that's just sport and fun. But, entering open competitions is fine for youngsters. Step into the ring and find out what's necessary. I'd say that if you want to compete with someone who can do X, you should be able to do X as well.

It's not necessary to compete. Testing can be done in competition, sparring, or drills.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Aikido v mma

Postby Steve James on Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:27 am

It's not necessary to compete. Testing can be done in competition, sparring, or drills.


:) I think facing someone who wants to hurt you is a test. Everything else is just fun and practice. The "dojo" is a safe place. I think people take this sport stuff entirely too seriously. The only reason the guy can even consider modifying aikido (or what he does) for mma is because it's safe.

My main point was that people can modify whatever they do in order to compete at mma. What they end up with is the accumulation of whatever they've practiced. And then it is limited by the quantity and quality of weapons they can bring to bear. I think anyone who competes in mma will have to learn to strike with his fists, even if he's studied bjj or wrestling.

I'm not arguing against what Rokas is doing; it's his thing. Mma is just mma; do that.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 16780
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Aikido v mma

Postby marvin8 on Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:37 pm

Steve James wrote:
It's not necessary to compete. Testing can be done in competition, sparring, or drills.


:) I think facing someone who wants to hurt you is a test. Everything else is just fun and practice. The "dojo" is a safe place. I think people take this sport stuff entirely too seriously. The only reason the guy can even consider modifying aikido (or what he does) for mma is because it's safe.

You can wait for a real, aggressive attack (e.g., street fight) to happen or you can prepare for it by placing it in your practice. In MMA, you are "facing someone who wants to hurt you" with real aggressive pressure. Most people realize "sport" MMA can be serious and not "safe." In sparring and drills, one can increase the realistic, aggressive pressure as much as one wants.

At 3:53 of the video I posted, Dan says peace, harmony and flowing when someone is coming at you with aggressive pressure is high level. But if one is not used to that aggressive pressure, one will tense up and lose any flow or aiki. To get to that high level, one must practice in aggressive pressure situations at times.

Steve James wrote:My main point was that people can modify whatever they do in order to compete at mma. What they end up with is the accumulation of whatever they've practiced. And then it is limited by the quantity and quality of weapons they can bring to bear. I think anyone who competes in mma will have to learn to strike with his fists, even if he's studied bjj or wrestling.

I'm not arguing against what Rokas is doing; it's his thing. Mma is just mma; do that.

You have mentioned MMA several times in your posts. However, Rokas has stated the goal is not "modifying aikido in order to compete at mma." MMA is not "his thing;" pressure testing for self-defense is.

Rokas is modifying aikido for self-defense. MMA is only one way to pressure test and decide which "weapons" are needed. Drills and sparring are other ways.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Aikido v mma

Postby Steve James on Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:37 pm

Well, I don't argue about a person's personal practice. So, I'm not arguing for or against Rokas's pov. I mention mma because that's the thread title. I said I didn't understand the Need for such a comparison. In an mma contest, everybody's doing mma.

Afa "self defense" is concerned, there are too many variables to talk about styles. But, I think that some aikido practitioners can defend themselves "in general." It's the same when people debate whether a tcc practitioner can defend himself. Does someone need to modify tcc so that it's good for self-defense? The debate doesn't matter. In a given situation, either it works or not.

NOw, I do think that competition instills a confidence that doesn't exist without it. That's not to say that competition is necessary, only that the self-confidence that comes from it is a benefit. It's not that "mma" is the only or best form of competition. It's just the popular context today, in the same way that kickboxing was popular before.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 16780
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

PreviousNext

Return to Video Links

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests