Steve James wrote:Ya gotta admit that studying aikido doesn't meant that a person can't fight or win against someone who doesn't study aikido (or, does mma). So, I don't really understand the argument.
Steve James wrote:It'd be interesting to hear specifics on techniques fundamental to aikido that could be useful in general.
Steve James wrote:The nice thing about wing chun and some other martial arts is that a person can walk out of the first class with something he can use, whether a principle or a technique. He might not be good at it; but, he'll have a better chance.
Steve James wrote:Anyway, mma is primarily associated with (the addition of) grappling, specifically bjj. Do the bjj guys here think that they incorporate aikido principles? Is aikido seemingly less effective (or questionably so) because, unlike judo, it does not emphasize competition?
Why does one have to admit that?
Steve James wrote:Ya gotta admit that studying aikido doesn't meant that a person can't fight or win against someone who doesn't study aikido (or, does mma). So, I don't really understand the argument.
Steve James wrote:marvin8 wrote:Why does one have to admit that?
Because it's obvious. The guy in the video is an example; win or lose.
Per Rokas, it does mean that. He "couldn't win against a MMA" person, because of his studying only aikido (13 years).
Steve James wrote:Ya gotta admit that studying aikido doesn't meant that a person can't fight or win against someone who doesn't study aikido (or, does mma). So, I don't really understand the argument.
Steve James wrote:Per Rokas, it does mean that. He "couldn't win against a MMA" person, because of his studying only aikido (13 years).
I never said anything about only studying aikido. I said that studying aikido didn't prevent anyone from learning how to fight. It doesn't mean that someone who's studied aikido can't learn to kick or punch or grapple on the ground. No big deal.
Rokas wrote:I felt always not sure about what will I do. There was such a big gap between my aikido and those street situations—where as you said you had a backup plan (other MA training). You know you could handle them If that came to be. And then, you can use aikido, For me it was like crap, how do I make sure I use this tiny bit of limited practice that I have. So yeah, that issue I have definitely experienced it:
marvin8 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tugYPl7W9E&t=3m8s
Steve James wrote:Adapting aikido to mma, imo, is no different than adapting stand up wrestling to mma or boxing. There's no need to adjust; just do it. Like I said, I don't do aikido; but, I'm not sure that many train it in order to practice sport mma. For that, they practice sport mma. If they can use aikido principles or techniques --even though we know that small joint manipulation is prohibited-- that's wonderful. If not, they will end up doing what everybody else who's successful does. He's not going to get away with punching less, or kicking less, or working on his ground game less than other competitors.
Ya gotta admit that studying aikido doesn't meant that a person can't fight or win against someone who doesn't study aikido (or, does mma). So, I don't really understand the argument.
Steve James wrote:marvin8 wrote:Why does one have to admit that?
Because it's obvious. The guy in the video is an example; win or lose.
Steve James wrote:I wrote:Ya gotta admit that studying aikido doesn't meant that a person can't fight or win against someone who doesn't study aikido (or, does mma). So, I don't really understand the argument.
I was referring to the Bas Ruten video. The other guy studied aikido, but he slapped and kicked because those were the rules of the contest.
Steve James wrote:I don't understand why it's important to use it as an aikido v mma contest, or why (if it is) offered as an example that an aikidoka can't fight.
marvin8 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tugYPl7W9E&t=7m8s
Jason is not an example either. Because besides aikido, Jason studied kicking, punching, etc. via Five Animals style, Taekwondo and, later in his MMA career, Gracie Jiu Jitsu.
Steve James wrote:Jason is not an example either. Because besides aikido, Jason studied kicking, punching, etc. via Five Animals style, Taekwondo and, later in his MMA career, Gracie Jiu Jitsu.
That was my point.
Steve James wrote:Ya gotta admit that studying aikido doesn't meant that a person can't fight or win against someone who doesn't study aikido (or, does mma). So, I don't really understand the argument.
marvin8 wrote:Per Rokas and his tests (one in the OP video), "the argument" is most traditional aikido practice does not develop effective self defense skills. . . .
Per Rokas, it does mean that. He "couldn't win against a MMA" person, because of his studying only aikido (13 years).
marvin8 wrote:Steve James wrote:I don't understand why it's important to use it as an aikido v mma contest, or why (if it is) offered as an example that an aikidoka can't fight.
"MMA contest" is only one way. Per Rokas and Dan, it important to test against aggressive pressure whether through MMA, sparring or drills. Dan explains this from 7:08 to 8:30:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tugYPl7W9E&t=7m8s
Do you agree with the "argument" that only studying traditional aikido is not enough to effectively defend oneself?
How would you suggest to pressure test aikido, if "important?"
Steve James wrote:marvin8 wrote:Do you agree with the "argument" that only studying traditional aikido is not enough to effectively defend oneself?
Do you mean on the street or in the ring? Assuming that we're talking about the latter, and that the ring means an mma competition, then yes. If one wants to compete at mma, one will end up doing mma -no matter what the base art was.
Otoh, do I think that Steven Segal, for eg., is able to defend himself using "only" aikido, yes. Will he win if his opponent thai kicks him while staying out of range, I dunno.
But, here's what I don't understand. What's the point of comparing aikido to mma? Why not boxing? or karate? Secondly, imo, if someone adds kicking and punching to aikido, why is it still aikido? Why is what Jason Deluca did not aikido?
Steve James wrote:marvin8 wrote:How would you suggest to pressure test aikido, if "important?"
The same way I'd test tcc. However, that's just sport and fun. But, entering open competitions is fine for youngsters. Step into the ring and find out what's necessary. I'd say that if you want to compete with someone who can do X, you should be able to do X as well.
It's not necessary to compete. Testing can be done in competition, sparring, or drills.
Steve James wrote:It's not necessary to compete. Testing can be done in competition, sparring, or drills.
I think facing someone who wants to hurt you is a test. Everything else is just fun and practice. The "dojo" is a safe place. I think people take this sport stuff entirely too seriously. The only reason the guy can even consider modifying aikido (or what he does) for mma is because it's safe.
Steve James wrote:My main point was that people can modify whatever they do in order to compete at mma. What they end up with is the accumulation of whatever they've practiced. And then it is limited by the quantity and quality of weapons they can bring to bear. I think anyone who competes in mma will have to learn to strike with his fists, even if he's studied bjj or wrestling.
I'm not arguing against what Rokas is doing; it's his thing. Mma is just mma; do that.
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