BruceP wrote:Kinda in between and both of those axe methods.
The first guy uses both hands in his preperatory movement and the second guy uses one hand. Fighting with a 'hawk or short axe (viking style) has both hands involved in the swing. The second hand holds the haft just under the head so it can assist in pushing/throwing the head. Both hands raise up and the upper hand pushes the haft to give the axe ready speed as it is swung. With both hands controlling the haft, it can be used to block, push, bunt and poke, with the option of swinging always present. It takes much less arc to the rear to get the axe into action if the second hand is assisting.
I'd still like to hear your reasons why you think Pi Jing has to be downward - I've yet to hear a logical reason. You're a reasonable man so I'm sure you can provide one. All I usually hear is some version of "because that's what my teacher said" (for teacher you can also insert "classics" - which actually don't' say what people think they say, or turn out to be written very recently ) People usually stop there and don't think or question further.
Pi has a main downward component because it is driven by a downward dantien rotation. Same way, tzuan is mainly upward because it is driven by an upward dantien rotation. These two are linked so they create a circle in the body, Rising and falling...
I see also a minor horizontal component from kua rotation ... I would dare to say that Pi also mainly uses an opening the back force, while tzuan focuses on opening the chest.
“Hi Graham,
Cool, I dont think you answered my question however. The body and its limbs are not axes or spears. An axe can split something in any direction because of its edge, take away they edge and you are just smacking something with a stick. So the question remains What is 'Pi Jin'?
I can use Pi with my forearm, fist, elbow, head, shoulder, knee, foot etc. So the 'edge' of the axe being swung is absent, what is it then that defines 'Pi' and differentiates it from the other elements?”
For the record, I have always been taught and stated that Pi is downward AND forward. The amount of down and the amount of forward can vary, From the heavy downward bias of a throw, to the heavy forward bias of a strike. it is definately not only Downward so your version like a straight strike isnt unusual or out of the ordinary for me.
Jaime made a very good point. Without Dan tien driven movement it would not be Xing Yi as i know it. Were you to drive your movement with a different type of Dan Tien rotation it would be a different element.
Again i know we differ on what that means.
The question could really be asked, why would you need too do 'pi' in another direction? the 5 elements of Xing Yi already cover the up to down, down to up, side to side, in to out and circle/spiral directions very well, then for those small gaps that they dont, we have the 8 character skills.
cloudz wrote:I think you'll find the answer is there's no such thing as "xingyi".
However, in my view that’s just too simplistic again (no offence). What makes a strike with Tzuann Jing a strike with Tzuann jing is actually the spiralling aspect, not the direction down to up.
If we’re just talking about semantics then you could call and upward strike a tzuann and have done with it, but that misses out an important quality - if it doesn’t spiral then its missing the tzuann aspect.
If the point of tzuann, in its pure form, is just “down to up” then why is there a twist on it?
“to me i understand Pi jin to be a force which is able to split or cut through a target.“
This distinguishes it from the sort of force you’d use to jab with or stab with in weapons arts - Beng Jing in XingYi. or anything that makes use of a spiralling kind of power (Tzuann Jing)
Does that make it clearer? I’m not sure how many other ways there are to say the same thing…
You don’t list what you count as “down to up” in the 5 elements, but I’ll take a wild guess and say that’s what you call Tzuann Jing?
However, in my view that’s just too simplistic again (no offence).
If you go back and watch the mad axe man in the snow again - he's showing a downward strike followed by an upward strike. Now he's not using the "Xingyi body" to do his work, but the action of the strike is close to a Pi in both instances. He chops down, then he chopes up. He doesn't tzuann up because there's no spiral in what he's doing - it's a chop.
hmm, i guess we see what we would like to see, but the upwards motion, although using the axe is not the same IMO. For instance, his downward action uses a concaving of the front of the body, his upwards action uses a convexing of the front of the body and more rotation, if you look closely or pause when he makes the swing. Both rely on swinging an axe and the axe will chop ... but they are not using exactely the same mechanics. Just like an upper cut and a hook dont use the same machanics, but feel relatively similar on the recieving end.
Pandrews1982 wrote:I think there is a distinction between FORM and JIN. The argument is all to do with semantic and putting things in boxes really.
Form is set movement for learning something. In the Pi Quan form the main Pi Jin component is downwards. But Pi Jin could be applied to other movements which could be different vectors to a downward chop.
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