3rd Loosening Exercise: Huang, Crawford, McGregor & Portal

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Re: 3rd Loosening Exercise: Huang, Crawford, McGregor & Portal

Postby GrahamB on Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:13 am

everything wrote:SO....

what are the reasons for loosening up/warming up your arms like this?

and I assume the rest of your body, too.


Well, I believe that's the million dollar question, and the key criticism that Mr Morris has of Mr Portal's use of his exercises - that they are just being done as exercises and an end in themselves.

Mr Morris writes: "The Zoom in Zoom out concept
Every drill or exercise I engage in is brief and is immediately tested in a live contextual environment. I don't wait days , hours or even seconds to check out the transfer effect. In other words, if I am engaging in isometrics so to increase the frequency rate of neural firing for say a left hook I don't wait . I immediately transfer that rate of explosive firing to an actual left hook . And that's why Portals movement stuff is shite. In that, there is no context being established between what is being practiced and why .Its just exercise nothing more nothing less .No different if you like to the cross fit shite that's out there."

As to the point of the exercise, I believe Mr Morris addresses it in another post:

"Arm Swinging .Or how to develop heavy hands
What ever type of arm swing you engage use your ,feet , legs hips, spine and head(micro) to generate the free swing of the arms/arms. Not only aim for speed but try to get as much blood into your hand/hands as you can . In other words try to make your hands and arms feel heavier than they were before you engaged in the exercise . Indeed immediately after the swing hit a bag or someone (open or closed ) and you will get a sense of what it's like to punch heavy or the dead blow hammer effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_blow_hammer You could also try swinging wearing a loose boxing glove so that you can feel the glove wanting to fly . Water is another way ie try to spin dry your hand .Do the exercise with some form of purpose and not just as a movement."

and

"I see Portal is thieving again . The arm swing though isn't so weird if you know what you are looking at and why.And those familiar with Chinese double saber will recognize this double arm move , or who have bought my nunchaku dvd, or watched Rickson Gracie working out on the beach in Choke. I showed Portal this move along with some other arm swinging moves when I was in Berlin.The idea of this exercise and many others like it is to transfer the momentum of the entire body to the free arm or leg (Conservation of momentum .As the mass decreases the velocity increases)
However when I showed Portal this move he just couldn't get it. Indeed McGregor, when he is actually punching doesn't understand the principle of using the body(legs/hips /spinal engine to throw the shot ie if the limb wasn't attached to the body it would fly across the room. The exercise is to increase the speed of the limb by applying the laws and principles of force and motion(conservation of momentum /angular momentum /angular velocity etc ) to the body As well as to strengthen the elastic comonents of "shoulder" connective tissue so that the chances of injury are reduced and there is the potential for an additional "elastic" snap at the end of the shot .
Exercises, neural drills etc are pointless if you can't make the transfer to real world ,real time situations . In other words, it's just some weird fucking drill. But what the fuck do i know ..http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/boxing/co ... t-10974494

From: https://www.facebook.com/morris.method/ ... 2842624448
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Re: 3rd Loosening Exercise: Huang, Crawford, McGregor & Portal

Postby RobP3 on Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:40 am

GrahamB wrote:
everything wrote:SO....

what are the reasons for loosening up/warming up your arms like this?

and I assume the rest of your body, too.


Well, I believe that's the million dollar question, and the key criticism that Mr Morris has of Mr Portal's use of his exercises - that they are just being done as exercises and an end in themselves.



+1
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Re: 3rd Loosening Exercise: Huang, Crawford, McGregor & Portal

Postby everything on Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:40 am

hmm interesting, thanks, graham.

since i'm not a boxer, I don't have too much reason to seek out those benefits, although I like tennis, so maybe it's helpful there. would be different for feet. I'd like "heavy feet" and "fast feet" for kicks at times. AFAIK I can't shake my legs like a crazy person, though. I'll try it. Is there even a similar routine?

also, I'm more interested in general health and fitness, so other than "strengthen the elastic components" (which is more than enough reason), any other health reasons/aspects people like these exercises? does it help your general flexibility? good for warming up after joint rotations?
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Re: 3rd Loosening Exercise: Huang, Crawford, McGregor & Portal

Postby RobP3 on Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:46 am

everything wrote:. AFAIK I can't shake my legs like a crazy person, though. I'll try it. Is there even a similar routine?

also, I'm more interested in general health and fitness, so other than "strengthen the elastic components" (which is more than enough reason), any other health reasons/aspects people like these exercises? does it help your general flexibility? good for warming up after joint rotations?


Try RMA/Systema, they approach work from a health basis as well as "functional", in an integrated, developed way, not a piece meal "cool exercise" approach. Also this is stuff that has been developed over decades by sports scientists as well martial arts / military specialists. No need to reinvent the wheel
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Re: 3rd Loosening Exercise: Huang, Crawford, McGregor & Portal

Postby GrahamB on Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:55 am

everything wrote:hmm interesting, thanks, graham.

since i'm not a boxer, I don't have too much reason to seek out those benefits, although I like tennis, so maybe it's helpful there. would be different for feet. I'd like "heavy feet" and "fast feet" for kicks at times. AFAIK I can't shake my legs like a crazy person, though. I'll try it. Is there even a similar routine?

also, I'm more interested in general health and fitness, so other than "strengthen the elastic components" (which is more than enough reason), any other health reasons/aspects people like these exercises? does it help your general flexibility? good for warming up after joint rotations?


I'm not a boxer either, so I don't do these things. I don't believe you need these things for 'general health and fitness' - you're probably better off doing what Rob suggests - i.e. look for an overall system that these things fit into, rather than as "warm up" exercises. I remember going to a Tai Chi class years ago where they always taught the arms singing drill as a 'warm up' - it always seemed like a real waste of time because it didn't have anything to do with anything else done in the class. It was basically a way of using up 5 minutes of class time as far as I could see.
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Re: 3rd Loosening Exercise: Huang, Crawford, McGregor & Portal

Postby everything on Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:59 am

definitely don't mean to approach it as if it's a fad or "new'. I don't think I have access to RMA. I don't want to be a dillettante (eh, I might be one), but I guess maybe I should check youtube? maybe like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxF-BEE62nE or this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixtFMBpJ9cc (might be you guys?). I do very little MA; main interest at this very moment is rehab/prehab/fitness, and getting back to sports.
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Re: 3rd Loosening Exercise: Huang, Crawford, McGregor & Portal

Postby everything on Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:07 am

back on the kerfuffle topic, when you study something for years (especially if you've proven in various ways to be a good student), you are going to pick up something from your new studies. mcgregor (I'm not a fan) already proved to be good at mma to make an understatement. surely his level of athleticism and achievement lets him acquire something useful from an exercise even if his instructor didn't know everything from his instructor, and even if neither of them have expertise in ima/cma/rma/etc.? I mean we wouldn't criticize wherever rickson got his weird flappy thing, right? maybe mcgregor would learn even more from morris, but that "accident didn't happen".
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Re: 3rd Loosening Exercise: Huang, Crawford, McGregor & Portal

Postby RobP3 on Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:09 am

everything wrote:definitely don't mean to approach it as if it's a fad or "new'. I don't think I have access to RMA. I don't want to be a dillettante (eh, I might be one), but I guess maybe I should check youtube? maybe like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxF-BEE62nE or this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixtFMBpJ9cc (might be you guys?). I do very little MA; main interest at this very moment is rehab/prehab/fitness, and getting back to sports.


Yep, the second one :) There's a ton of clips on our Channel, including exercises. Let me know if you have any questions

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtmj8N2Y2JDGVLm6jcruTYw
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Re: 3rd Loosening Exercise: Huang, Crawford, McGregor & Portal

Postby RobP3 on Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:09 am

everything wrote: maybe mcgregor would learn even more from morris, but that "accident didn't happen".


+1 again. Why not go to the source??
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Re: 3rd Loosening Exercise: Huang, Crawford, McGregor & Portal

Postby middleway on Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:14 am

A whole section of one of my courses (heavyBody) is dedicated to 'swinging' methods like these so i guess i should list my reasons! :P But they marry up somewhat in what Steve says, and from what i have experienced of what Rob does.

1) To release tension that is hard to release in other ways.
2) 'Heavy Hands' (heavy anything really) - a major benefit is making the body familiar with using/casting/transfering its weight. The aim is obviously for this to be the perminant state.
3) General Shoulder health - Shoulders are VERY hard to get too without a massage therapist on hand. Studies back up swinging things and hanging from things are benefitial for shoulder health and rehab.
4) "other" ... mainly relating to transfer, body to limb, connective tissues stuff. etc.

These are major points. I also agree with Rob, that Systema as i have seen it, has a full compliment of methods for heavy hands training and is one of the go too styles for 'swinging' (not in that way!)

I think arm swings are included in Tai Chi to release the shoulders and the arms and relax unwanted tension before the main work of the style. Seems like a sound strategy for an art like tai chi and probably why so many do it.

I have recommended swinging methods to numerous people with shoulder problems, including my mother, and it has helped them all.

thanks.
Last edited by middleway on Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:25 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: 3rd Loosening Exercise: Huang, Crawford, McGregor & Portal

Postby middleway on Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:31 am



Rob, doesnt the Russian Shashka use similar arm movements now i think about it?

thanks.
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Re: 3rd Loosening Exercise: Huang, Crawford, McGregor & Portal

Postby marvin8 on Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:37 am

everything wrote:SO....

what are the reasons for loosening up/warming up your arms like this?

and I assume the rest of your body, too.

A few videos on the subject.

“Basic usage.”


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8JYHrqYfpc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voDm0w9YbH4

Finer points.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VcVjIW ... Bd17Vjf-Nf

Published on Jan 30, 2016
Wee Kee Jin explains the more advanced aspects of Master Huang's 3rd Loosening Exercise, as well as points to look out for. In addition, the video also includes some guided practice so that we can practice along at home almost as if we were there in person following Kee Jin. For full video -
http://www.relaxedmindtaichi.com:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1vKnEJpf48

“Feet movement must be timed right.” “Have our whole body working as one.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz4qoAedvXA
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Re: 3rd Loosening Exercise: Huang, Crawford, McGregor & Portal

Postby everything on Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:22 am

Whoa thanks a lot for so many videos, marvin8.

Rob, you guys look good. I'll definitely ask you some questions sooner or later.

middleway, thanks for those explanations. I would like to work on heavy body and reducing tension for sure.

Back to the kerfuffle thing - from the sidelines, eating popcorn, I guess if you are #1 in the world, you may not feel a strong need to go find a better coach for x? Not saying he is arrogant, but I assume you may feel you understand quite a lot about applying movement, so you may be satisfied with your current coaches if you believe you are still improving from the #1 position. Other #1s like Ronaldo or Messi or Steph Curry constantly improve something, but I don't know if they feel a need to upgrade their advisors/coaches, or could logistically pull too much of that off considering they're in a set team environment. I've never been #1 even on a team level, so this is all armchair speculation.
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Re: 3rd Loosening Exercise: Huang, Crawford, McGregor & Portal

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:07 pm

I don't think Conor will get much out of these exercises due to his posture and body structure
He would much better spend his time working the speed bag or pads
For him just think of it as a holiday in his training
Those who can't see how these exercises apply to tai chi and combat should most likely not be commenting on tai chi
These are basic and obvious
They are an introduction to cold shaking energy and lead in to its use in combat
I had contact with a guy I haven't seen for 30 years just recently
He and his mates were causing a bit of trouble at a Christmas party in the late 70's
I asked them to calm down a bit and he moved in to hit me
I used these exercises and hit him once
He said the other day he still doesn't know what I hit him with
These exercises with proper instruction are very useful
It's just that's most people in their practice don't know the bridge to application ans so practice them with no Yi
What Niall said about the form and the practice of drills apples here
Repetition of correct way of movement is what's they are designed for
They are similar to the Wu 24 noi gung or the Tien gan
They are the gung of tai chi
But they must be done in the correct manner or they are just a waste of time
As some people do them they just entrench bad habits and make students fodder for teachers wanting to propell them away
I have said here often certain things wouldn't work on my students,not because they are great fighters,most aren't
But they have good basics drilled in on a daily basis through these exercises
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Re: 3rd Loosening Exercise: Huang, Crawford, McGregor & Portal

Postby GrahamB on Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:33 pm

I suspect they come from White Crane - famous for shaking power - and have nothing to do with Tai Chi.
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