LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

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LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Rhen on Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:58 am

so we've seen and heard of this guy for years and when it comes down to showing his worth vs. a resisting opponent. Total fail:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViR1SjmSCsY



now if we can just get the other marketing gurus of tai chi to enter a event....hmmmm jake mace...Adam mizner....who else??
Last edited by Rhen on Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Fa Xing on Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:39 am

Is that Richard Clear? Oh dear.....
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Bao on Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:11 pm

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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby windwalker on Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:15 pm

Steffan, haven't seen him, in many yrs.
good to know he's still practicing.

Regarding what it is . "LOL "internal" push hands my A$$"

I would say it depends on the lens that one views it through.
It would be better to show an example of what would be considered "internal" push hands

If the clip is being compared what either teacher does in "demos" it may be problematic if the skill sets are close
or equal as to how something might,could or should look.

Not being a ph fan, frankly I really don't see the point of practices
like these, although I understand what the point is said to be.

A question asked and has been pointed out on other threads by those more
knowledgeable on such things "Appledog" comes to mind,

would one consider this a valid example of
whats known as push hands.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Steve James on Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:58 pm

would one consider this a valid example of
whats known as push hands.


But, that's the thing. People call lots of exercises push hands. I guess competitions are natural, but I'm really confused how competitions like these, specifically, are scored. The Chen style phs tournaments seem to have more definitive examples of winning. Though I've seen lots of phs exercises where victor and loser was obvious.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby windwalker on Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:35 pm

Steve James wrote:
would one consider this a valid example of
whats known as push hands.


But, that's the thing. People call lots of exercises push hands. I guess competitions are natural, but I'm really confused how competitions like these, specifically, are scored. The Chen style phs tournaments seem to have more definitive examples of winning. Though I've seen lots of phs exercises where victor and loser was obvious.


Used to help judge some ph events in my time helping some friends I know with their events.
The basic point is to be able to unbalance and cause one to take a step or step over a line in whats called fixed meaning no stepping.

Depending on judge some stepping may or may not be allowed.

In Push Hands Competition there are several general forms, most of which fall into the categories of fixed step, restricted step, and moving step. Each form has different restrictions on what is considered knocked off balance; in fixed step any movement of the foot off the ground will count as loss of balance. in restricted step movement is back and forth between competitors on a single line, one foot is placed in front of the other, and to be considered knocked off balance one must move the front foot beyond the back, or vice versa; one may also be considered off balance if they must take a step too far to the side.
http://martial-arts.yoexpert.com/martia ... -3028.html

Never, really agreed nor understood the competitive part of it, but do understand its
something that others do...

I do feel its part of the problem with how taiji in gen
in perceived and used. ...
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Subitai on Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:58 pm

Ok...Don't want to say anything bad.

I'm just curious about the rules set? No major grabbing or even arm drags?

Or are they just choosing to do it like that???

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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Steve James on Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:02 pm

I'm sure there are rules. And, I'm sure people have fun. I didn't know who the guys in the video were, and the rules weren't so apparent to me. But I've never been a judge or competed in that type of event.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby windwalker on Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:09 pm

Subitai wrote:Ok...
Or are they just choosing to do it like that???

Me no likey


Steffan

http://goldeneaglemac.com/steffan.html

Knew him along time ago while stationed in the Army in AL...
Nice guy used to be a student of Doc Fai Wong..another friend of mine.
I would be circumspect about judging others skill with out touching hands with them.

the other teacher Mr Clear, some others may know of or have met him.



In the first clip its within the rule set of the event.
In the second clip one might say that they both understand the rule set and so
are keeping to it.

The rule sets do not allow for much else.

There are specific things that they the judges are looking for and using to evaluate a winner.
As I mentioned not something I agree with just offering some thoughts.

For anyone wanting to compete in PH events might be a good time to check out some rule sets.

PH is an event with its own rules designed to highlight what some consider to be taiji skill sets apart from
the intended use of the skill sets "fighting" Whether it achieves this one has to decided for themselves.

One should remember there are those who spend lots of time developing skill sets adapted to this event.
Operating within the context of ph rules its not so easy as some may feel....

When I did judge it was discussed making the ability to make both feet of the other leave the ground "pop up"
as the only way to get a point....probably not something that many could do in that context and so was not used.

The question that one might ask is whether such skill sets are able to transfer to other things like "fighting"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIyH6VFQYsc
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:40 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Bao on Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:15 am

windwalker wrote:Steffan, haven't seen him, in many yrs.
good to know he's still practicing.


He is with Adam Mizner and instructor for HME. Steffan seems to have a vast experience. I am surprised that he doesn't continue by his own with his own group or organization.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZJ61hgybU4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwfFGA3t3Kk

Good post WW. 8-)
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby GrahamB on Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:48 am

Rhen wrote:so we've seen and heard of this guy for years and when it comes down to showing his worth vs. a resisting opponent. Total fail:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViR1SjmSCsY



now if we can just get the other marketing gurus of tai chi to enter a event....hmmmm jake mace...Adam mizner....who else??


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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby marvin8 on Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:14 am

Steve James wrote:I'm sure there are rules. And, I'm sure people have fun. I didn't know who the guys in the video were, and the rules weren't so apparent to me. But I've never been a judge or competed in that type of event.

General Competition Rules (UPDATED 6/1/2016), https://usksf.org/wp-content/uploads/20 ... 2016rv.pdf:
Free-Style Taijiquan Pushing Hands Rules

1. Competition Site and Accompanying Facilities
• A circle of between 12 and 15 feet in diameter should demarcate the effective
competition arena. The line of demarcation should be of thickness 5 cm.
• All matches are conducted on an elimination basis. If there are only 3
competitors in a division, the matches are conducted on a round robin basis.

2. Competition Rules and Regulations
• All participants are to adhere to the principles of sticking, connecting, adhering,
following, overcoming force by yielding to it, and emphasizing technical finesse
over force. Thus, competitors are only permitted to employ the orthodox
Taijiquan techniques such as ward off, rollback, press, push, etc. that are
congruent to the preceding principles mentioned to unbalance their respective
opponents. No wrestling, punching, kicking, or vicious sweeping is allowed.
• Each match is divided into 3 rounds. Each round spans a duration of 2 minutes,
accompanied by a rest of 1 minute after each round. The winner of each round is
decided by the total points scored. A contestant who wins 2 rounds out of the 3
is the winner of the match.
• If there is an inconclusive verdict after 3 rounds, the referee is to declare a draw.
One (1) sudden-death, overtime round will be conducted for 1 minute. The
winner of this round will be declared the winner of the match. If there is still no
conclusive verdict after the overtime round, the competitor with the least amount
of fouls will be declared the winner. If there is still no conclusive verdict, judges
will counsel and deliberate with the Arbitrator, and the final verdict will be
declared on the effective use of Taiji pushing hands techniques of the
contestants. The Chief Judge’s decision is final.
• Upon entering the arena center, both parties are to cling their left palm lightly
onto the right elbows of the respective parties, and their right forearm against
each other near the wrist. Maintaining contact between upper limbs of both
opponents throughout each round is a prerequisite to attacking or
counterattacking.
• The release of strength must only be executed while contact with the body of the
respective opponent is established. It is strictly prohibited to release strength
through the employment of fists or the palm from a distance.
• If there is an injury to a competitor, up to a 5 minute injury time-out will be
allowed. If the injured party cannot continue after the injury, then the other
competitor will be declared the winner. Please note that a competitor will not be
declared the winner if the injury was caused by an intentional foul (see Section 4
for further clarification).
• Free Style Pushing Hands event is for Advanced Taijiquan practitioners only.

3. Scoring Criteria
• Points are awarded to the party who successfully renders the respective
opponent unstable and staggered, semi-unbalanced, and/or fully unbalanced
either inside or outside the circular competition boundary. This unbalancing of
the opponent must progress from a Taijiquan technique. Muscular pushing and
shoving will not be counted towards a contestant’s score. The following points
will be awarded:
a. 1 point: Off balance from a Taijiquan technique
b. 2 points: Discharge outside of the circle
c. 2 points: Off Balance with hand/knee touching the floor inside the circle
d. 3 points: Discharge outside of the circle with off-balance with hand/knee
touching the floor
• When a foul is committed amidst unbalancing an opponent, no points will be
awarded. Points may be deducted from the competitor committing the foul.
• Scoring Notes:
a. No point is awarded upon utter disregard for technique and blatant use of
flagrant strength or employment of grappling or grasping to render an
opponent out of bounds.
b. No point is awarded to the degeneration of the contest into a grappling or
shoving match by both parties.
c. No point is awarded if a contestant pulls or drags an opponent to the
ground while falling.
• Any competitors who do not use valid Taijiquan principles can be eliminated
from the event.

4. Fouls and Ensuing Penalties
• Surprise attacks or attacks launched without the establishment of prior contact
with opponent.
• No attacks above the shoulder or below the waist are allowed.
• The employment of fingers or other similar extremities located on the upper arm
to poke, jab, or stab any body part of the opponent.
• The employment of feet to tread or hook any body part of opponent.
• The employment of palms to choke or to push the opponent’s neck or chin
region.
• Hugging of the opponent’s back, reaching under the opponent’s armpit or over
the side waist for more than 3 seconds.
• Clutching, grabbing, or pulling of clothes.
• Stirring up or lifting up the clothes of the opponent to induce bodily contact in a
sweeping movement so as to provoke and aggravate the opponent.
• Clutching or grabbing the feet and legs of the opponent.
• Upon successful employment of the plucking technique, the participant must
release the hold immediately after the technique is executed.
• Spitting and biting are strictly prohibited.
• No brutish employment of grappling or wrestling is condoned. Grappling or
wrestling is deemed to have occurred when an arm or both arms are outstretched
from the body rendering the contestant capable of hugging.
• Whenever an arm of a contestant is located beneath the armpit of the opponent
for more than 3 seconds, and is rendered incapable of executing a valid
Taijiquan technique, the contestant will be issued a warning.
• At the start of the competition, the palm/wrist of the contestant is only permitted
to establish contact with the region spanning from the elbow to the fingertips of
the forearm of the opponent in order to ensure strict adherence to the principles
of sticking, connecting, adhering, and following.
• Do not lean the shoulders, head, or neck against the opponent.
• Flagrant disdain and disregard for techniques adhering to the principles and
employment of illegal techniques will result in immediate disqualification and a
suspension from the tournament event.
• The continuation of avoiding contact with the opponent for more than 10
seconds will result in a warning (1 point deduction after the 2nd warning).
• Foul Notes:
a. Verbal warning, no point will be deducted; 2nd warning, 1 point will be
deducted.
b. Foul, 1 point will be deducted. 3 fouls will lead to an automatic
disqualification.
c. Committing a serious foul may result in immediate disqualification.
d. In any match, the chief judge may declare the winner by prominent
advantage when one party has outscored the other party by more than 15
points.
e. In any match, the chief judge may declare the loser when 6 points have
been deducted from a contestant due to warnings/fouls.

PO Box 927 ● Reisterstown, Maryland 21136-0927 ● USA
Tel. (443-394-9200) ● Fax 443-394-9202
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Steve James on Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:35 am

• All participants are to adhere to the principles of sticking, connecting, adhering, following, overcoming force by yielding to it, and emphasizing technical finesse over force. Thus, competitors are only permitted to employ the orthodox Taijiquan techniques such as ward off, rollback, press, push, etc. that are congruent to the preceding principles mentioned to unbalance their respective opponents. No wrestling, punching, kicking, or vicious sweeping is allowed.


Ok, I'm totally against competitive push hands precisely because I've rarely seen "orthodox" tcc techniques employed. I've seen people pushing and pulling in ways that, if someone told me it was another martial arts, I wouldn't be able to say why not.

I also have questions about rules such as:

No point is awarded upon utter disregard for technique and blatant use of flagrant strength or employment of grappling or grasping to render an opponent out of bounds.
b. No point is awarded to the degeneration of the contest into a grappling or shoving match by both parties.


I understand the point, but I wonder how people get to the point of solely using technique in the first place, and why there's a need for weight divisions if they have. The easiest way to demonstrate the use of technique over brute force is to have competitors of different sizes and weights. I do get why there are weight divisions, though.

As ww said, people can become very skilled at their chosen push hands format. I've no doubt about that. My concern is that all the things that are against the rules are what generally make any martial art effective for self defense. Iow, I can't see a situation where I'd choose to use the methods shown in the video. Imo, it comes down to what one wants to be skilled at and the amount of time one has to devote to one's practice.

I'm not critiquing the players. I am saying that, if someone is older or weaker, and wants to study tcc for self-defense, then doing competitive push hands as shown may not be the best way to go. That's especially true given the rule sets. Btw, I'm not saying that they should put on gloves and spar. But, the "full range" of tcc techniques do include strikes, etc. I wonder if the same restrictions (to orthodox tcc techniques) could be used in the full contact competitions.

Edit: I just searched the ytube for a clip. This one was interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leuf-5pZaaw&t=133s
Last edited by Steve James on Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby windwalker on Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:39 am

"All participants are to adhere to the principles of sticking, connecting, adhering,
following, overcoming force by yielding to it, and emphasizing technical finesse
over force.

Thus, competitors are only permitted to employ the orthodox
Taijiquan techniques such as ward off, rollback, press, push, etc. that are
congruent to the preceding principles mentioned to unbalance their respective
opponents. No wrestling, punching, kicking, or vicious sweeping is allowed."

"No wrestling, punching, kicking, or vicious sweeping is allowed."

Which is something I never quite understand for those insisting that it should be included
or asking why its not....maybe because its "push hands" regardless of whether one agrees with it
or not.

As some one who's practiced taiji for a while, even judged some of the events.
I've come to my own conclusions about the practice and so can not endorse it as a competitive
method of testing skill feeling the skill of any taiji player should be tested in a context like any other
martial art allowing it to be seen for what it is and how it manifest itself.

A danger for many into push hands is the feeling that the skill sets transfer over to things they've yet to do
if they don't in their own practices. Some do, but most of those I've met really do not.
Others may find different.

When they attempt to engage out side of this context ,
the results are almost always the same "not good :P "

for the most part because the context
by which the skill sets are tested are not
the the one in which they are expected to be used.

gotta fight if one expects to understand fighting
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Bhassler on Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:51 am

I once did push hands with Rory Miller. It was this same kind of fixed step unbalancing game, and I could pretty much move him at will. Later on, we did one of his drills, where he started with his back to me, and I was to do any attack that I wanted, the only rule being "everybody goes to work tomorrow"-- meaning don't break your toys but as long as no one goes to the hospital, it's all in good fun. I still don't know what happened, except I thought I was gonna do something and then ended up on my ass five feet away with Rory standing over me. I'm not sure, but he might have gone and got a cup of coffee while I was falling and been back in time to see if I was gonna get up and do anything.

I've got lots of stories like that about getting my ass kicked. The point being, at a base level this type of push hands can build important skills that lead to other really nice skills, but once folks start training specifically to win the drill, it becomes less useful for fighty stuff and doesn't show much about actual ability.
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