LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:01 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Funny when push comes to shove how many tai chi people can pull a car crash out of their back pocket


You beat me to it! ;D

I also seem to recall several well-known IMA teachers who just so happened to sustain various traffic injuries right around the times when their underwhelming performances (or non-performance) went public -- not to mention their miraculous full-recoveries, which they attribute to diligent IMA practice, shortly afterward. ;)
Last edited by C.J.W. on Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Bhassler on Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:53 am

I've taken a few lovely beatings from a middle aged woman with bad knees and MS when she was too tired/sore to allow her karate students to demo on her. So if karate works for people with handicap placards hanging in their car windows who can barely walk, and taiji doesn't work for strong, fit men who had a fender bender a few months or years ago, what's that say about the claims of IMA?
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby windwalker on Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:57 pm

Bhassler wrote: So if karate works for people with handicap placards hanging in their car windows who can barely walk, and taiji doesn't work for strong, fit men who had a fender bender a few months or years ago, what's that say about the claims of IMA?


That they are claims, it remains for oneself to prove them.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby richardg6 on Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:42 pm

Wow is all I can say. Let's not confuse sparring, boxing or fighting with push hands which is simply a 2 person exercise to develop certain skills like ting and peng for example. It is a cooperative and contrived practice done with an agreement like a game of tennis.

Why is this useful for martial arts? In addition to strengthening the body, push hands gives us a chance experience contact and feel while maintaining a relaxed structure while replicating a fighting situation and is merely a learning or training tool.

The solidity at the point of contact is essential. If one simply yields and has no shape you will be overwhelmed and hit by anyone with power.

You are forced to show up or eat the hand. The question is, can you show up fully, receive, listen and change?
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Bhassler on Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:44 pm

richardg6 wrote:Wow is all I can say. Let's not confuse sparring, boxing or fighting with push hands which is simply a 2 person exercise to develop certain skills like ting and peng for example. It is a cooperative and contrived practice done with an agreement like a game of tennis.

Why is this useful for martial arts? In addition to strengthening the body, push hands gives us a chance experience contact and feel while maintaining a relaxed structure while replicating a fighting situation and is merely a learning or training tool.

The solidity at the point of contact is essential. If one simply yields and has no shape you will be overwhelmed and hit by anyone with power.

You are forced to show up or eat the hand. The question is, can you show up fully, receive, listen and change?


If you're going to blatantly steal the words of a respected member of this forum, you should probably give credit.
https://www.12riverstaichi.com/blog/2017/9/17/tai-chi-push-hands


.
Last edited by Bhassler on Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby richardg6 on Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:32 pm

If you're going to blatantly steal the words of a respected member of this forum, you should probably give credit.
https://www.12riverstaichi.com/blog/201 ... push-hands

I apologize to Derek for not crediting the source {stealing?} of the last lines but the message is still the same. :P
Last edited by richardg6 on Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Fubo on Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:12 pm

Regarding the first couple clips, being able to push someone a couple steps is pretty meaningless in combat unless there's a cliff or spike behind them. I lot of what's being called "unbalancing" is not really "unbalancing". You can maintain your balance when being pushed and taking a step. Infact, a lot of the time someone takes a step in these instances is to maintain their balance. Also, unbalancing someone is useless unless you can capitalize on it with a take down or strike. Just showing the ability to unbalance someone doesn't mean you poses the ability to make use of the opportunity, because it takes timing, good entries, techniques etc. to be able to do so. These push hands competitions are really of limited value for testing and developing combative skill sets. Also, why do they need 4 judges for this event?

They should keep these push hands drills as the drills they are and compete in things like Shuai Jiao, which would be a much better test of their stand up grappling skill and sensitivity
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Bao on Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:55 pm

Fubo wrote:Regarding the first couple clips, being able to push someone a couple steps is pretty meaningless in combat unless there's a cliff or spike behind them. I lot of what's being called "unbalancing" is not really "unbalancing". ... Infact, a lot of the time someone takes a step in these instances is to maintain their balance.


Agreed. 8-) You can only unbalance if the opponent stays put on the spot. Otherwise, unbalancing means you give the body a chance to stabilise itself. So you must first make sure that he doesn't move. So if the rules is not stationary push hands, you need to put your leg behind his or in some other way trap his legs so they don't move.

Also, unbalancing someone is useless unless you can capitalize on it with a take down or strike.


Quite the opposite IMO. if you want to strike someone, you should trap the opponent, stabilise him or pull him towards your fist. You don't want to punch someone when he has no balance, you want a target you have good control over and can penetrate without it being moved.

They should keep these push hands drills as the drills they are and compete in things like Shuai Jiao, which would be a much better test of their stand up grappling skill and sensitivity


Agreed. But there's a very basic thing here that I don't know could be fixed easily... You can see it here, especially from one of the contestants, and in many other bouts. The whole approach is wrong. You can't just stand there and wait for something to neutralise, a perfect force or movement to intercept and return. Many PH competitors would get a very painful wake up call if they tried to enter a shuai jiao competition.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Fubo on Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:59 pm

I agree with your point about striking when the opponent is planted receive the full impact of the strike. I suppose my statement about striking was a bit too generalized. Though I do feel that there are opportunities to strike at the angle where someone is unbalanced and without a base to support.

I think for me it comes down to having honesty and awareness in what you're training and doing. Even though I personally don't like these types of push hands competitions, as they have very little value for what I want to train, if someone's enjoys it as an activity and is aware of the vast limitations of what this can offer as far as fighting ability goes, I see nothing negative in it. I think the problem is when people over estimate what they can do based on this kind of competition or training, and are not honest with themselves, it becomes a negative thing.

I agree again that the approach is wrong… you cannot wait as a strategy. Do be dominant you have to be the first to attack, and the opponent will be forced to react, and then you follow up and change beaded on his reaction. The person who bases what he does on waiting for an attack to react to is already forced into a position of defense, so he is already playing catchup. Theres this silly notion that many Tai Chi guys have, that if you wait for the attack, you will avoid the force, enter and complete your counter attack, often with the assumption that the other guy does not have a plan, or is not setting you up with the initial attack. In reality, its more likely that as you respond to the attack, the other guy is already reacting to your defense, and you will be continually forced into the defensive, and will be difficult to recover.

I agree that people that only train for this type of push hands will be shocked by the level of intensity, resistance and skill if they were to enter any kind of wrestling based competition like Shuai Jiao, Judo etc.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby marvin8 on Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:44 pm

Bao wrote:
Fubo wrote:Regarding the first couple clips, being able to push someone a couple steps is pretty meaningless in combat unless there's a cliff or spike behind them. I lot of what's being called "unbalancing" is not really "unbalancing". ... Infact, a lot of the time someone takes a step in these instances is to maintain their balance.


Agreed. 8-) You can only unbalance if the opponent stays put on the spot. Otherwise, unbalancing means you give the body a chance to stabilise itself. So you must first make sure that he doesn't move. So if the rules is not stationary push hands, you need to put your leg behind his or in some other way trap his legs so they don't move.

Fubo wrote: Also, unbalancing someone is useless unless you can capitalize on it with a take down or strike.


Quite the opposite IMO. if you want to strike someone, you should trap the opponent, stabilise him or pull him towards your fist.

You don't want to punch someone when he has no balance, you want a target you have good control over and can penetrate without it being moved.

How do you "trap the opponent," when the opponent is moving, controlling the distance and attacking with low kicks, punches, etc.? It can be difficult.

One does not have to "trap the opponent," in order for a strike to be effective. There are more opportunities to control an opponent, then just waiting for a trap. For example, one can counter an opponent moving towards oneself, using his momentum to create a greater impact. Also, one can attack an out of position opponent, as he is turning to face oneself.

"Unbalancing means you give the body a chance to stabilise itself." This is an opportunity to use the opponents momentum by changing the direction of one's attack: attack the rebound.

IMO, the problem with many applications demos the opponent reacts/freezes unnaturally, while the demonstrator performs moves.

Bao wrote:
Fubo wrote:They should keep these push hands drills as the drills they are and compete in things like Shuai Jiao, which would be a much better test of their stand up grappling skill and sensitivity


Agreed. But there's a very basic thing here that I don't know could be fixed easily... You can see it here, especially from one of the contestants, and in many other bouts. The whole approach is wrong. You can't just stand there and wait for something to neutralise, a perfect force or movement to intercept and return. Many PH competitors would get a very painful wake up call if they tried to enter a shuai jiao competition.

I agree. How do the skills in push hands competition/push hands transfer to competitions with more open rules?
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Bao on Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:21 pm

marvin8 wrote:
Bao wrote:Quite the opposite IMO. if you want to strike someone, you should trap the opponent, stabilise him or pull him towards your fist.


How do you "trap the opponent," when the opponent is moving, controlling the distance and attacking with low kicks, punches, etc.? It can be difficult.

One does not have to "trap the opponent," in order for a strike to be effective. There are more opportunities to control an opponent, then just waiting for a trap.

You don't wait for it. I said that you should trap him, that's an active verb. You trap an opponent in the same way that you go in for a throw or a take down. Put your leg behind his, step on his foot, drag his arm, pull him down by the neck etc. Tai Chi push hands is basically stand up grappling/anti-grappling so to go in and make his posture unmovable should be one of the least problems.

And of course you don't need this for a strike to be effective. Many boxing matches have ended by one walking into amother's fist.
Last edited by Bao on Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby windwalker on Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:33 pm

marvin8 wrote: How do the skills in push hands competition/push hands transfer to competitions with more open rules?


What it should allow one to do is to be able to sense, the yin/yang point at the point of contact and be able to exploit this.
Because of how most practice or play PH, IME they never really develop this ability.

I myself am not a fan of PH but do under stand why some train for the contest.

IMO the PH contest have changed the whole out look of how most view and understand taiji.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby marvin8 on Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:34 am

Bao wrote:
Fubo wrote:Also, unbalancing someone is useless unless you can capitalize on it with a take down or strike.


Quite the opposite IMO. if you want to strike someone, you should trap the opponent, stabilise him or pull him towards your fist. You don't want to punch someone when he has no balance, you want a target you have good control over and can penetrate without it being moved.

Well Zhang Yun says Na ("usually means keep him off-balanced") and Fa should be used.

Excerpt from Jin in Taiji Quan, http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/TJ_Jin/TJ_Jin3.html
Zhang Yun wrote:4. Using jin in pushing hands and fighting

One common mistake for many people is that they try to use fa jin too directly. They just want to use their jin to beat their opponents as hard as possible. But in real Taiji Quan skill, throwing jin should never be used alone.
The complete process consists of five steps:
1. Ting – listen: feel or detect what the opponent want to do,
2. Hua – melt or dissolve: neutralize the attacking force,
3. Yin – lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go where you want him to go,
4. Na - hold or control: get the opponent under your control (usually means keep him off-balanced), and
5. Fa - release a throwing force: attack.

Here the first four skills are nei jin skills, while the last one, fa, can be either nei jin or wai jin. In order to be true Taiji skill, the first four steps must be present.

Excerpt from Taiji Thirteen Postures by Zhang Yun, http://www.taiji-bg.com/articles/taijiquan/t75.htm:

When Bafa are applied, all the processes of Ting, Hua, Yin, Na, and Fa should also be included. Ting is listen. It means to feel your opponent, to know what he wants to do. Hua is dissolve. It means to dissolve your opponent’s force and not letting him get you. Yin is seduce. It means to lure your opponent into trouble. Na is hold. It means to control him and keep him in trouble. Fa is launch. It means release force to throw the opponent away or hit him hard. Although they are different skills, in fact they are combined together and are always used together.


Bao wrote:You don't wait for it. I said that you should trap him, that's an active verb. You trap an opponent in the same way that you go in for a throw or a take down. Put your leg behind his, step on his foot, drag his arm, pull him down by the neck etc. Tai Chi push hands is basically stand up grappling/anti-grappling so to go in and make his posture unmovable should be one of the least problems.

I thought you were limiting the approach, range and skills of Tai Chi here. In order to trap, you need to be in trapping range. Supposedly, Tai Chi has skills that one can use outside of the trapping range, as well, such as:
windwalker wrote:What it should allow one to do is to be able to sense, the yin/yang point at the point of contact and be able to exploit this. Because of how most practice or play PH, IME they never really develop this ability.

If you can control the opponent "at the point of contact," you don't need to engage in grappling.
Last edited by marvin8 on Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby cloudz on Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:00 am

Fubo wrote:


I agree again that the approach is wrong… you cannot wait as a strategy. Do be dominant you have to be the first to attack, and the opponent will be forced to react, and then you follow up and change beaded on his reaction. The person who bases what he does on waiting for an attack to react to is already forced into a position of defense, so he is already playing catchup. Theres this silly notion that many Tai Chi guys have, that if you wait for the attack, you will avoid the force, enter and complete your counter attack, often with the assumption that the other guy does not have a plan, or is not setting you up with the initial attack. In reality, its more likely that as you respond to the attack, the other guy is already reacting to your defense, and you will be continually forced into the defensive, and will be difficult to recover.



In every combat sport ever counter attacking fighters have had success. Seriously, WTF are you on about.

Also this idea that all TC players that compete will be out of their depth with other arts ?


Haters be hating; and what they have in common is they have never competed themselves with the rest of the tai chi community, imperfect as it may be. I hope no one in their right minds respects your non experience of tai chi competition and possibly miss out on what can be a valuable stepping stone and learning experience.. Let Casey be a shining example to all you hater bitches.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Fubo on Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:48 am

cloudz wrote:
Fubo wrote:


I agree again that the approach is wrong… you cannot wait as a strategy. Do be dominant you have to be the first to attack, and the opponent will be forced to react, and then you follow up and change beaded on his reaction. The person who bases what he does on waiting for an attack to react to is already forced into a position of defense, so he is already playing catchup. Theres this silly notion that many Tai Chi guys have, that if you wait for the attack, you will avoid the force, enter and complete your counter attack, often with the assumption that the other guy does not have a plan, or is not setting you up with the initial attack. In reality, its more likely that as you respond to the attack, the other guy is already reacting to your defense, and you will be continually forced into the defensive, and will be difficult to recover.



In every combat sport ever counter attacking fighters have had success. Seriously, WTF are you on about.

Also this idea that all TC players that compete will be out of their depth with other arts ?


Haters be hating; and what they have in common is they have never competed themselves with the rest of the tai chi community, imperfect as it may be. I hope no one in their right minds respects your non experience of tai chi competition and possibly miss out on what can be a valuable stepping stone and learning experience.. Let Casey be a shining example to all you hater bitches.


Yes, counter attacking fighters have had success, but they are the exception, not the rule. My issue with this is that too many Tai Chi guys perpetuate the idea that you have to wait for an attack before you respond. More often than not, the defensive fighter gets dominated because they end up waiting. Guys like Conner McGreggor and Machida are exceptions in combat sports. Never say never, but Tai Chi guys should also be open to the idea of being proactive.

Where did I say "TC players that compete will be out of their depth with other arts"? I said TC guys that only do the types of push hands in the OP's post will not be ready for types of encounters and competitions that go beyond pushing each other out of a fixed step, and that that type of competition and training does not indicate that one will be able to take advantage of the "off balancing" to finish the guy.

Who are you calling a "hater"? I'm not saying I'm the ultimate authority of all things Tai Chi/martial arts, but having had experience with this type of competition/training in this types of push hands, with 2 decades of Tai Chi training, with combat sports competition experience in different venues, I believe I'm entitled to my opinions. Perhaps more Tai Chi people should get out of their comfort zone and try their skills in various venues to see what they can do and what they need to work on?

Here's the thing. I have no interest in resurrecting the whole sport vs street discussion. We can talk about how all sport competitions have limitations, and that we have to acknowledge the benefits and limitations of each format. For me, if I'm competing, I want to feel that I'm getting the most out of the experience and money, so for me, proving that I have the sensitivity to push (or "up root") someone off their base so they take a step of 2 (something which I have plenty of experience in) is of very little value to me as far as developing and testing a physical engagement that has a start, middle and end. Something that has a lot more value to me as a way of testing ability is something along the lines of competition where the end is where someone is thrown onto the ground, or submitted etc. because even though it maybe limited (no multiple attackers, no weapons, no concrete etc.) it is a closer simulation of a dynamic of a real fight (theres a start, a middle and a definitive end). The OPs push hands video is more like a simulation of the beginning of a fight, where 2 people push each other. You can give the reasoning that it's all about a test of sensitivity, and to a very limited point it is, but at the end of the day if we're talking about simulating certain dynamics of a fight (beginning, middle and end), you need a rule set that allows for that to happen and not just have the end of the encounter be someone taking a step. Sensitivity will still be involved, but to a much more dynamic degree.

Martial arts are full of assumptions, and thats the nature of training, and there's nothing wrong with that. A Judoka/Shuai Jiao guy trains to throw someone, tests it against resistance and competes. He's under the assumption that having had that experience, he will be able to pull it off in more situations than not because he's felt what it's like to do it from the beginning (squaring off), through the middle (engaging), to the end (finishing with the other guy on the ground despite his best efforts to not get thrown). It's not real life with all the variables, but it's a pretty good assessment of that skill set under resistance, and can also be a good test of sensitivity from start to finish. If my training and competition is being more sensitive than the other guy to push or "up root" him, I can only have the assumption that that's what I'll be able to do. If I have the assumption that I'll be able to throw the guy (because I believe that since he's up rooted I can have my way with him) without actually developing that ability and timing of entering and finishing, the probability of that assumption coming true dramatically drops.

I'm not sure why you're so defensive about this topic. Perhaps this is your chosen venue and training, and you feel the need to defend it? Like I said, I'm not a "hater". If this type of thing is what people want to do, and all they want to do, then more power to them. I believe honesty is the most important thing in martial arts. Being honest with oneself allows you to see your true ability and limitations. Being honest with your students allow them a true perspective of the skills they are developing.
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