LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Bao on Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:58 am

marvin8 wrote:If you can control the opponent "at the point of contact," you don't need to engage in grappling.


That is very true. But it's not always so easy. If someone jumps up and down in and out or running straight toward you, it mostly takes more than just a touch to make that one stop. Also, to "control the opponent 'at the point of contact'" means to control the balance/root. There must be a connection from the ground to the contact point. Experienced Tai Chi and PH people won't let you get this connection so easily. So sometimes things may look very simplistic in theory, but depending on who you meet and in what circumstances, the situation is often more complicated and different from how things look in theory...
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Fubo on Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:02 pm

That's a good point. You can have an ideal situation where you make contact and control without clinching or grappling, but it's not easy. This reminds me of Aikido demonstrations. They always come across as examples of an ideal. Uki commits to a clear angle and line of attack, and Tori controls with flow with barely a touch and throws the guy by guiding his momentum and over-extention. I think it's always good to shoot for ideals, but there's a need to be able to deal with all the degrees of "imperfect" situations in-between. Sometimes you get stuck in a position where it takes a lot of work to out maneuver, out leverage, out smart the opponent. If the skill level is close, or the opponent is substantially larger and stronger, it can make these ideal moments all the more difficult to come by.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Trick on Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:11 pm

cloudz wrote:[

In every combat sport ever counter attacking fighters have had success. Seriously, WTF are you on about.

Also this idea that all TC players that compete will be out of their depth with other arts ?


Haters be hating; and what they have in common is they have never competed themselves with the rest of the tai chi community, imperfect as it may be. I hope no one in their right minds respects your non experience of tai chi competition and possibly miss out on what can be a valuable stepping stone and learning experience.. Let Casey be a shining example to all you hater bitches.

He he, Well i have never participated in a PushHand competition(not even a taiji forms competition) but would probably try it out if i get the chance, why not? I too can not see what harm to my Taiji would suffer if participate in such an event. If ones skill is superior the worst thing that can happen will probably be that one walks home with an gold medal or wathever cool prize is handed out, if not like it just hide it in the closet.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby cloudz on Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:47 am

Fubo wrote:
cloudz wrote:
Fubo wrote:


I agree again that the approach is wrong… you cannot wait as a strategy. Do be dominant you have to be the first to attack, and the opponent will be forced to react, and then you follow up and change beaded on his reaction. The person who bases what he does on waiting for an attack to react to is already forced into a position of defense, so he is already playing catchup. Theres this silly notion that many Tai Chi guys have, that if you wait for the attack, you will avoid the force, enter and complete your counter attack, often with the assumption that the other guy does not have a plan, or is not setting you up with the initial attack. In reality, its more likely that as you respond to the attack, the other guy is already reacting to your defense, and you will be continually forced into the defensive, and will be difficult to recover.



In every combat sport ever counter attacking fighters have had success. Seriously, WTF are you on about.

Also this idea that all TC players that compete will be out of their depth with other arts ?


Haters be hating; and what they have in common is they have never competed themselves with the rest of the tai chi community, imperfect as it may be. I hope no one in their right minds respects your non experience of tai chi competition and possibly miss out on what can be a valuable stepping stone and learning experience.. Let Casey be a shining example to all you hater bitches.


Yes, counter attacking fighters have had success, but they are the exception, not the rule. My issue with this is that too many Tai Chi guys perpetuate the idea that you have to wait for an attack before you respond. More often than not, the defensive fighter gets dominated because they end up waiting. Guys like Conner McGreggor and Machida are exceptions in combat sports. Never say never, but Tai Chi guys should also be open to the idea of being proactive.

Where did I say "TC players that compete will be out of their depth with other arts"? I said TC guys that only do the types of push hands in the OP's post will not be ready for types of encounters and competitions that go beyond pushing each other out of a fixed step, and that that type of competition and training does not indicate that one will be able to take advantage of the "off balancing" to finish the guy.

Who are you calling a "hater"? I'm not saying I'm the ultimate authority of all things Tai Chi/martial arts, but having had experience with this type of competition/training in this types of push hands, with 2 decades of Tai Chi training, with combat sports competition experience in different venues, I believe I'm entitled to my opinions. Perhaps more Tai Chi people should get out of their comfort zone and try their skills in various venues to see what they can do and what they need to work on?

Here's the thing. I have no interest in resurrecting the whole sport vs street discussion. We can talk about how all sport competitions have limitations, and that we have to acknowledge the benefits and limitations of each format. For me, if I'm competing, I want to feel that I'm getting the most out of the experience and money, so for me, proving that I have the sensitivity to push (or "up root") someone off their base so they take a step of 2 (something which I have plenty of experience in) is of very little value to me as far as developing and testing a physical engagement that has a start, middle and end. Something that has a lot more value to me as a way of testing ability is something along the lines of competition where the end is where someone is thrown onto the ground, or submitted etc. because even though it maybe limited (no multiple attackers, no weapons, no concrete etc.) it is a closer simulation of a dynamic of a real fight (theres a start, a middle and a definitive end). The OPs push hands video is more like a simulation of the beginning of a fight, where 2 people push each other. You can give the reasoning that it's all about a test of sensitivity, and to a very limited point it is, but at the end of the day if we're talking about simulating certain dynamics of a fight (beginning, middle and end), you need a rule set that allows for that to happen and not just have the end of the encounter be someone taking a step. Sensitivity will still be involved, but to a much more dynamic degree.

Martial arts are full of assumptions, and thats the nature of training, and there's nothing wrong with that. A Judoka/Shuai Jiao guy trains to throw someone, tests it against resistance and competes. He's under the assumption that having had that experience, he will be able to pull it off in more situations than not because he's felt what it's like to do it from the beginning (squaring off), through the middle (engaging), to the end (finishing with the other guy on the ground despite his best efforts to not get thrown). It's not real life with all the variables, but it's a pretty good assessment of that skill set under resistance, and can also be a good test of sensitivity from start to finish. If my training and competition is being more sensitive than the other guy to push or "up root" him, I can only have the assumption that that's what I'll be able to do. If I have the assumption that I'll be able to throw the guy (because I believe that since he's up rooted I can have my way with him) without actually developing that ability and timing of entering and finishing, the probability of that assumption coming true dramatically drops.

I'm not sure why you're so defensive about this topic. Perhaps this is your chosen venue and training, and you feel the need to defend it? Like I said, I'm not a "hater". If this type of thing is what people want to do, and all they want to do, then more power to them. I believe honesty is the most important thing in martial arts. Being honest with oneself allows you to see your true ability and limitations. Being honest with your students allow them a true perspective of the skills they are developing.


You talk too much. I don't entirely care who said exactly what. If the second part of my post doesn't apply to you that's fine. I only directed my first comment directly at something you said. So whatever I say, if the hat doesn't fit don't wear it. But I'm hearing the same old crap in this thread that you generally always hear with this topic. Same old same old.

Yes there are limitations in the rule sets. But at the same time, the ones we have in Europe are decent introductions to stand up grappling. I don't beleive we are that far away from jacketless Chinese wrestling. So why all the negative bullshit?

Some of the best trainers of tai chi fighters on this side of the pond use tai chi grappling and it's formats both as part of training the whole, competing, testing - whatever.
It is what it is, no one talks the same bullshit about Sumo, Judo or Chinese wrestling and yet it's not that big of a difference in skillsets whatsoever - if done well. This is proven nicely by someone like Casey - You can see clearly he is using tai chi principles and countering techniques against him - in so doing he wins his match. He's being defensive in the right way.. and he's not relying on techniques offensively like people doing Judo or Chinese wrestling might. There are plenty of competitors over the years in Boxing, for example, that have used a counter attacking style very well.

As far as being pro active is concerned, you can do what you want, when you want. But if you want to be good with tai chi principles and be judged accordingly, you need to work at it. Don't criticize people for trying to follow the principles of their art. If it's not for you, good, it is not an easy transition to give up your will in a fight (for the most part) and follow anothers. It doesn't surprise me that those that can't really hack it's demands can end up bitter towards it.

Isn't it correct that at this US tournament there is Kuoshu?
So again what's the big deal when tai chi people and whoever else can fight in that format if they wish to. In that light it's completely pointless to piss and moan about what's lacking in the stand up grappling format. Should I moan about butt scooting in BJJ or that I can't go for the legs in Greco Roman. I wouldn't because then I would be missing the point of them as much as you are with this.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby cloudz on Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:04 am

These clips are from a former group/ instructor I've trained with.
I went to the Euro tourney when I was training under him, with 2 other fellow students. I also later on competed at the London event, which I won..
Having those experiences were good and positive and I will never accept for a minute that it does any harm to either TCC or the people doing them.
It's not the be all and end all, but that's not/ missing the point. And really that's all you and bao have been doing; lamenting what they are not and focusing on the gaps..
So maybe there are less than desirable matches or performances out there, or whatever you have found to complain about.. But there are also good examples of skill.
We all have to remember that TCC is not a stand up grappling art.. It's a Chinese MMA, but this is just focusing on one part of that - an important part IMO.


Training:




London Tourney:
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:05 am, edited 6 times in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby wiesiek on Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:35 am

about the above vid:
SC guy wasn`t well trained , or had a bad day,
I really don`t understand why he repeated seoinage after the block.
He should go follow the counter and change for inner hook /ouch gari/, for ex.
There was , also, to shallow entrances for seoinage, he should get his back in contact with TJ guy chest,
then it could be easy cake, due to difference in heights .

This is keyboard word of truth, of c., :)
second version : TJ guy was better trained, `cause he was able to use principles for counter/s/, or better to say - avoid been thrown, when SC representative wasn`t .

Speakin` about waiting for the counter versus attack for winning :
It depends of situations, teacher and personal preferences, styles are secondary.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby cloudz on Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:24 am

wiesiek wrote:
Speakin` about waiting for the counter versus attack for winning :
It depends of situations, teacher and personal preferences, styles are secondary.


I don't really disagree with that. If it works, generally speaking it doesn't matter to me. But when it matters to me to adhere to tai chi chuan, then I'm of the opinion that you can't ignore that the primary strategy is to counter. So much so that in that particular style it has become part of it's identity. Even if you don't always use it, you should be working and training towards it. It's not like you can't or shouldn't have a plan B, and for most people that's their natural default anyway. Some folks do find it quite natural to take a more passive/ reactive role, i think it's fdair to say most don't though. People are different, obvioulsy. Frankly I think if it doesn't come naturally (it didn't to me I believe), that person at some point has a decision to make. Commit and accept that side of Tai chi and work towards it as a primary strategy, or just walk away from it and do something else instead.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Fubo on Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:27 am

cloudz wrote:

I agree again that the approach is wrong… you cannot wait as a strategy. Do be dominant you have to be the first to attack, and the opponent will be forced to react, and then you follow up and change beaded on his reaction. The person who bases what he does on waiting for an attack to react to is already forced into a position of defense, so he is already playing catchup. Theres this silly notion that many Tai Chi guys have, that if you wait for the attack, you will avoid the force, enter and complete your counter attack, often with the assumption that the other guy does not have a plan, or is not setting you up with the initial attack. In reality, its more likely that as you respond to the attack, the other guy is already reacting to your defense, and you will be continually forced into the defensive, and will be difficult to recover.



In every combat sport ever counter attacking fighters have had success. Seriously, WTF are you on about.

Also this idea that all TC players that compete will be out of their depth with other arts ?


Haters be hating; and what they have in common is they have never competed themselves with the rest of the tai chi community, imperfect as it may be. I hope no one in their right minds respects your non experience of tai chi competition and possibly miss out on what can be a valuable stepping stone and learning experience.. Let Casey be a shining example to all you hater bitches.[/quote]

Yes, counter attacking fighters have had success, but they are the exception, not the rule. My issue with this is that too many Tai Chi guys perpetuate the idea that you have to wait for an attack before you respond. More often than not, the defensive fighter gets dominated because they end up waiting. Guys like Conner McGreggor and Machida are exceptions in combat sports. Never say never, but Tai Chi guys should also be open to the idea of being proactive.

Where did I say "TC players that compete will be out of their depth with other arts"? I said TC guys that only do the types of push hands in the OP's post will not be ready for types of encounters and competitions that go beyond pushing each other out of a fixed step, and that that type of competition and training does not indicate that one will be able to take advantage of the "off balancing" to finish the guy.

Who are you calling a "hater"? I'm not saying I'm the ultimate authority of all things Tai Chi/martial arts, but having had experience with this type of competition/training in this types of push hands, with 2 decades of Tai Chi training, with combat sports competition experience in different venues, I believe I'm entitled to my opinions. Perhaps more Tai Chi people should get out of their comfort zone and try their skills in various venues to see what they can do and what they need to work on?

Here's the thing. I have no interest in resurrecting the whole sport vs street discussion. We can talk about how all sport competitions have limitations, and that we have to acknowledge the benefits and limitations of each format. For me, if I'm competing, I want to feel that I'm getting the most out of the experience and money, so for me, proving that I have the sensitivity to push (or "up root") someone off their base so they take a step of 2 (something which I have plenty of experience in) is of very little value to me as far as developing and testing a physical engagement that has a start, middle and end. Something that has a lot more value to me as a way of testing ability is something along the lines of competition where the end is where someone is thrown onto the ground, or submitted etc. because even though it maybe limited (no multiple attackers, no weapons, no concrete etc.) it is a closer simulation of a dynamic of a real fight (theres a start, a middle and a definitive end). The OPs push hands video is more like a simulation of the beginning of a fight, where 2 people push each other. You can give the reasoning that it's all about a test of sensitivity, and to a very limited point it is, but at the end of the day if we're talking about simulating certain dynamics of a fight (beginning, middle and end), you need a rule set that allows for that to happen and not just have the end of the encounter be someone taking a step. Sensitivity will still be involved, but to a much more dynamic degree.

Martial arts are full of assumptions, and thats the nature of training, and there's nothing wrong with that. A Judoka/Shuai Jiao guy trains to throw someone, tests it against resistance and competes. He's under the assumption that having had that experience, he will be able to pull it off in more situations than not because he's felt what it's like to do it from the beginning (squaring off), through the middle (engaging), to the end (finishing with the other guy on the ground despite his best efforts to not get thrown). It's not real life with all the variables, but it's a pretty good assessment of that skill set under resistance, and can also be a good test of sensitivity from start to finish. If my training and competition is being more sensitive than the other guy to push or "up root" him, I can only have the assumption that that's what I'll be able to do. If I have the assumption that I'll be able to throw the guy (because I believe that since he's up rooted I can have my way with him) without actually developing that ability and timing of entering and finishing, the probability of that assumption coming true dramatically drops.

I'm not sure why you're so defensive about this topic. Perhaps this is your chosen venue and training, and you feel the need to defend it? Like I said, I'm not a "hater". If this type of thing is what people want to do, and all they want to do, then more power to them. I believe honesty is the most important thing in martial arts. Being honest with oneself allows you to see your true ability and limitations. Being honest with your students allow them a true perspective of the skills they are developing.[/quote]

You talk too much. I don't entirely care who said exactly what. If the second part of my post doesn't apply to you that's fine. I only directed my first comment directly at something you said. So whatever I say, if the hat doesn't fit don't wear it. But I'm hearing the same old crap in this thread that you generally always hear with this topic. Same old same old.

Yes there are limitations in the rule sets. But at the same time, the ones we have in Europe are decent introductions to stand up grappling. I don't beleive we are that far away from jacketless Chinese wrestling. So why all the negative bullshit?

Some of the best trainers of tai chi fighters on this side of the pond use tai chi grappling and it's formats both as part of training the whole, competing, testing - whatever.
It is what it is, no one talks the same bullshit about Sumo, Judo or Chinese wrestling and yet it's not that big of a difference in skillsets whatsoever - if done well. This is proven nicely by someone like Casey - You can see clearly he is using tai chi principles and countering techniques against him - in so doing he wins his match. He's being defensive in the right way.. and he's not relying on techniques offensively like people doing Judo or Chinese wrestling might. There are plenty of competitors over the years in Boxing, for example, that have used a counter attacking style very well.

As far as being pro active is concerned, you can do what you want, when you want. But if you want to be good with tai chi principles and be judged accordingly, you need to work at it. Don't criticize people for trying to follow the principles of their art. If it's not for you, good, it is not an easy transition to give up your will in a fight (for the most part) and follow anothers. It doesn't surprise me that those that can't really hack it's demands can end up bitter towards it.

Isn't it correct that at this US tournament there is Kuoshu?
So again what's the big deal when tai chi people and whoever else can fight in that format if they wish to. In that light it's completely pointless to piss and moan about what's lacking in the stand up grappling format. Should I moan about butt scooting in BJJ or that I can't go for the legs in Greco Roman. I wouldn't because then I would be missing the point of them as much as you are with this.[/quote]

IF my post is too long for you to read, don't read them... though it's ironic that you'd follow up with an equally long post.

You've obviously found what you like, so good for you.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Bao on Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:54 pm

cloudz wrote: generally speaking it doesn't matter to me. But when it matters to me to adhere to tai chi chuan, then I'm of the opinion that you can't ignore that the primary strategy is to counter. So much so that in that particular style it has become part of it's identity. Even if you don't always use it, you should be working and training towards it.
...Commit and accept that side of Tai chi and work towards it as a primary strategy, or just walk away from it and do something else instead.


I don’t really agree that countering is the primary strategy. Countering is IMO quite a narrow view on mirroring and adapting. Tai Chi use yin against yang, yang against yin. The primary concept is about adapting and mirroring.

The classics says:
“If my opponent moves slightly, I move first”

IMO Tai Chi strategy is about always adapting the opponents angle and posture and mirroring his movements regardless what he does. Even if he moves slightly or hardly show anything. Adapting is far different from waiting for an attack. It’s about distance and angle, how you place yourself and move in space.

“If my opponent seem close, I seem closer”.

If your opponent moves in, you know his intent is to attack or to set up an attack. Adapt to the intent. Closie in more than your opponent. Move closer to your opponent than he suspects. Now you can put your hands on his. Take control. Now you can wait for an attack, when you control the distance as you want and as you can feel him with your hands.

If you are in a PH or grappling situation and have connection, even if he does nothing, you should still fill in the gaps, find the holes in the posture, his weakness, maybe go for that third leg. This is using yang against yin, nothing that against basic tai chi principles. There’s no forcing, no use of unnecessary strength or effort. You can fill in the gaps and take him down effortlessly. If he change or resist, change and follow his movement. Fill in again.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Trick on Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:07 pm

Bao wrote:
I don’t really agree that countering is the primary strategy.
The classics says:
“If my opponent moves slightly, I move first”

“If my opponent seem close, I seem closer”.

??? 8-)
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby windwalker on Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:48 am


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m184UX0R5z0

Met Steffan, many yrs back when I was teaching in the area.
He a then student of Doc Fai Wong, a friend of mine from SF.

One has to ask themselves whats the real point and are they working on achieving that.
Or are they really working on something else....not understanding that they are.

For many taiji people PH has become the "way" in which their art is used. Lots of time
spent on developing things used within a context that for most experienced fighters it would not be something they would allow to happen.

All CMA moves through the 3 ranges, different styles speclize at different ranges but all have to deal with in the same
environment. Taiji has kind of cut it self from this development by making its own unique venue calming to show case unique
skill sets that somehow are never seen used out side of it...Why?

The strategy of taiji is like any other style,,,hit them before they hit you.....The tactics used to do this like other styles accords to the
training or specializations within the style.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Bao on Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:18 am

windwalker wrote:For many taiji people PH has become the "way" in which their art is used.


I think someone made a similar comment. PH competitions is a strange thing. The natural approach would be sparring and free fighting. PH is a basic exercise. Competitions in PH is a bit similar to if Thai Boxing competitions would include neck wrestling only. One small exercise represents the total expression of a complex art. :/
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:52 am

I don't think we have a common language when we speak of pushing hands
The stuff shown where people engage in a wrestlers clinch double weighted and leaning forward from the waist is limited
There should be a full range of pushing exercises
Structural
Co operative
Competitive
Technical
Combative (striking)
Weapons
At a distance
Only when a full range are employed is it useful as a complete training tool
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Steve James on Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:21 pm

Well, the reality is that any two-person exercise can be considered tuishou. There are many variations. Some styles have only a few patterns; others have many, both fixed and moving-step. Those who have many patterns usually say that they're all necessary. Otoh, some start with a simple pattern, then do what they can to push, pull or throw the opponent. The latter is applicable to any type of standup grappling type of competition, even judo.

However, people criticize that type of phs because it looks no different from other types of grappling: i.e., it doesn't look like "tai chi chuan." Why not? Imo, that gets back to a central question. Why do the forms at all if they're not used? If not the forms, per se, what about simply "peng, lu, ji, an, etc."? It stands to reason that if they can be used in "fighting," they can be used in phs competitions.

I don't think either approach is better or more necessary. Competitive phs people will have about as many opportunities to use their skills outside of competition as people who just do forms. My point is that phs should give the practitioner the opportunity to apply all the basics of the form. Competition tends to preclude that because simpler is better (even if it still requires great skill). I think a practitioner needs to give the opponent the opportunity to work on using the repertoire, and vice versa. I.e., it takes cooperation.

I think it's like watching a good bjj (or other) black belt instructor working with a white belt. Learning is the point of the exercise. Again, I don't think that phs competitions are useless, or that they don't require skill, or that the skills used can't be applied in other contexts. In fact, I tend to think that people who train for competitions are generally more prepared than those who don't. But, that's relative.
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Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:54 pm

I agree with most of what you are saying
I was not saying that you need to practice each pushing exercise daily but they are used to pass on a skill at a point in time
Once the lesson is learned they can disappear into free play
My teacher learned free style pushing before he learned exercises
As we are getting older we both get bored doing lots of pushing in a prearranged set
In saying that we are not doing the right thing by our students
Yet I see our students developing by just working with one another with the occasional touch from us
The way competitive people lock in Rams horns against Rams horns I feel breeds in bad habits
Not sayin that this type of training won't help in most real life situations but so will rugby training and most likely better
I always judge pushing by how it will work against a knife
Are the mechanics the type that will aid you against a high functioning attacker
It is not the exercise that lacks in most situations but how it is taught
As I often say
Tai chi is an art that is passed on from hand to hand,literally
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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