LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

A collection of links to internal martial arts videos. Serious martial arts videos ONLY. Joke videos go to Off the Topic.

Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby marvin8 on Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:35 am

Bao wrote:
cloudz wrote: generally speaking it doesn't matter to me. But when it matters to me to adhere to tai chi chuan, then I'm of the opinion that you can't ignore that the primary strategy is to counter. So much so that in that particular style it has become part of it's identity. Even if you don't always use it, you should be working and training towards it.
...Commit and accept that side of Tai chi and work towards it as a primary strategy, or just walk away from it and do something else instead.

The classics says:

. . . “If my opponent seem close, I seem closer”.

If your opponent moves in, you know his intent is to attack or to set up an attack. Adapt to the intent. Closie in more than your opponent. Move closer to your opponent than he suspects. Now you can put your hands on his. Take control. Now you can wait for an attack, when you control the distance as you want and as you can feel him with your hands.

If you are in a PH or grappling situation and have connection, even if he does nothing, you should still fill in the gaps, find the holes in the posture, his weakness, maybe go for that third leg. This is using yang against yin, nothing that against basic tai chi principles. There’s no forcing, no use of unnecessary strength or effort. You can fill in the gaps and take him down effortlessly. If he change or resist, change and follow his movement. Fill in again.

-shrug- Where in the Tai Chi classics is that written?

marvin8 wrote:How do you "trap the opponent," when the opponent is moving, controlling the distance and attacking with low kicks, punches, etc.? It can be difficult.

Holly Holm and Amanda Nunez KO'd Ronda Rousey (olympian judoka) by not "closing in:" not playing to Rousey's strength/game. Instead, it was the matador vs the bull.

As in the Tai Chi classic:
Wang Zongyue wrote:Empty the left wherever a pressure appears,
and similarly the right.

If the opponent raises up, I seem taller;
if he sinks down, then I seem lower;
advancing, he finds the distance seems incredibly long;
retreating, the distance seems exasperatingly short.

Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming wrote:To attack where opponent is strong is called “mutual resistance.” This is inefficient, and contrary to taiji principles. You must train so that you automatically meet the opponent’s substantial (attacking) jing with and insubstantial (defensive) jing. As you defend, you may simultaneously counter or set yourself and your opponent up for your counterattack.
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 673
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby cloudz on Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:44 am

Bao wrote:
windwalker wrote:For many taiji people PH has become the "way" in which their art is used.


I think someone made a similar comment. PH competitions is a strange thing. The natural approach would be sparring and free fighting. PH is a basic exercise. Competitions in PH is a bit similar to if Thai Boxing competitions would include neck wrestling only. One small exercise represents the total expression of a complex art. :/


Look at the kind of people in MT classes - well they are more like Gyms mostly. And then look at your average tai chi class. It's also not really one small exercise - you could say that about fixed feet pushing. But there is at least one format, maybe 2 in Europe that's not the worst thing in the world to develop some stand up grappling skill. An analogy might be an MMA doing a Greco Roman competition. It's just the way things are.. It's better to accept reality, than talk bullshit. The two areas of grappling and striking have a natural seperation, not just in tai chi, the truth is there are far more people across the board that will end up shying away from getting punched in the head and punching others in the head, on a regular to semi regular basis. BJJ attracts a fair few people I think precisely because of that.

I'm all for the evolution of Tai Chi combat sports.. But some examples of what we have is mostly ok for taiji's stand up grappling purposes.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
cloudz
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2403
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:00 am
Location: London UK

Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby cloudz on Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:59 am

Bao wrote:
cloudz wrote: generally speaking it doesn't matter to me. But when it matters to me to adhere to tai chi chuan, then I'm of the opinion that you can't ignore that the primary strategy is to counter. So much so that in that particular style it has become part of it's identity. Even if you don't always use it, you should be working and training towards it.
...Commit and accept that side of Tai chi and work towards it as a primary strategy, or just walk away from it and do something else instead.


I don’t really agree that countering is the primary strategy. Countering is IMO quite a narrow view on mirroring and adapting. Tai Chi use yin against yang, yang against yin. The primary concept is about adapting and mirroring.

The classics says:
“If my opponent moves slightly, I move first”

IMO Tai Chi strategy is about always adapting the opponents angle and posture and mirroring his movements regardless what he does. Even if he moves slightly or hardly show anything. Adapting is far different from waiting for an attack. It’s about distance and angle, how you place yourself and move in space.

“If my opponent seem close, I seem closer”.

If your opponent moves in, you know his intent is to attack or to set up an attack. Adapt to the intent. Closie in more than your opponent. Move closer to your opponent than he suspects. Now you can put your hands on his. Take control. Now you can wait for an attack, when you control the distance as you want and as you can feel him with your hands.

If you are in a PH or grappling situation and have connection, even if he does nothing, you should still fill in the gaps, find the holes in the posture, his weakness, maybe go for that third leg. This is using yang against yin, nothing that against basic tai chi principles. There’s no forcing, no use of unnecessary strength or effort. You can fill in the gaps and take him down effortlessly. If he change or resist, change and follow his movement. Fill in again.


It is ALWAYS a matter of interpretation I guess. Your interpretation is not that different from mine. Only I know it as..

"my opponent does not 'move', I do not 'move'.."
"my opponent moves, I arrive first "

Much of interpreting that turns on how you understand 'move'.

Does it mean any movement at all once "it's on", or specifically an offensive technique. Well i think, like you obviously do, it's any movement for distance and position. No one even the best counter fighters and defensive fighters are going to let people change and angle off and or get closer without changing!

That is what being defensive is. If there is a good/ free opening without an offensive technique involved there is nothing wrong with taking it. He's moving at this point and you are arriving first. Loosely speaking that is simply saying be ahead of the game - exactly what good counter attacking fighters seek to do. To lead their opponents to go for them - hopefully in ways they are waiting for..

If you have someone in a safe place.. and he does not move, why do you move. When you are maintaining safety you can also engage in some luring and drawing tactics. The big point is not to give you opponent actions and opening to be used against you.

Tai chi also explicitley asks of you to give yourself up and follow the other. You are obvioulsy going to 'follow' in a manner that is both defensive and safe, but also puts you in the best possible positions to capitalize on mistakes, but really you want to draw offense.. All I would add, and perhaps it's obvious, but don't follow anyone over a cliff! ;)

I'm not telling you how to fight, whether to stalk your opponent or not. What opening to open up on or not. That is something that in the end is personal. But my opinion is there are levels in fighting and mastering survival first and the pure counter attacking style is highest level martial arts. Transforming attacks/ Hua.

Sure you talk about gaps in grappling.. but what you find is that the better the people you face the less openings and gaps they will leave for you to exploit - in every sense not just structurally. It becomes a matter of mistakes, and often the biggest mistake can become "going for it".
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:45 am, edited 6 times in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
cloudz
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2403
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:00 am
Location: London UK

Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby cloudz on Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:10 am

Fubo wrote:
IF my post is too long for you to read, don't read them... though it's ironic that you'd follow up with an equally long post.

You've obviously found what you like, so good for you.


I'm compelled to read it, it's important that light gets to illuminate the darkness.
At some point everyones either 'part of the problem', or 'part of the solution'.

Or let's just all go home and call the whole thing off.

I get that I have been very lucky and not had to sell my soul to another art and style, like so many like me.
I was lucky to have found people in my town/city who actually know how to train TCC in an alive and effective manner.
Who have coached succesful competitors not just in 'Sanda' or taiji grappling, but MMA also.

That's incredibly fucking rare, let's be real.
Any real tai chi chuan person should like it, if you had a teacher like that maybe it would be good for you too.

Instead of criticizing TCC from the ship you bailed to, people like you could end up part of 'the solution'.
Why people like you and Bao like to pile on and wollow in the negatives, is a great sadness, truly.

::)
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:51 am, edited 6 times in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
cloudz
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2403
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:00 am
Location: London UK

Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Bao on Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:37 am

”Tai chi also explicitley asks of you to give yourself up and follow the other.”


Absolutely. This is one of the main ideas. I call it mirroring, adapting and following. The question is when to start following and mirroring. I say it starts as soon you know that you have an opponent to fight or as soon as there is a potential threat. You start from following his intent, before he attacks. Then you can be fast enough to mirror his movements.

Any slight change/movement and you mirror hos movements with changing distance and angle. Why? Because of timing. You want to be fast enough to follow his movement and take control before he connects his structure and can express strength. Then you can easily handle most of opponents. If he already has speed and is free to connect his structure to express strength, then it’s much much harder.

Break the strength when before it turns too strong.
Break his root while it’s still weak.
Break his speed before it’s too fast.

If you don’t let your opponent shape his fists and aim his feet, then there will be no threat. This is what most Tai Chi practitioners do wrong. They tend to wait and try to follow strength and speed instead of filling in when the opponent is weak. Then if they do free push hands or try sparring they get in to a sparring mind-set and chase hands.

One of my teachers likes to say that you should give up yourself and let your tai chi do the work. That’s the other part of giving yourself up. You need to fill up yourself with your tai chi and tai chi only. You can’t let anything else disturb you. ;)
Last edited by Bao on Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5672
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Trick on Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:46 am

Bao wrote:If you don’t let your opponent shape his fists and aim his feet, then there will be no threat. This is what most Tai Chi practitioners do wrong. They tend to wait and try to follow strength and speed instead of filling in when the opponent is weak. Then if they do free push hands or try sparring they get in to a sparring mind-set and chase hands.

As I understand you think TJQ push hands competitors are doing it all wrong? Doesn't these kind of competitions also hold seminars, if so are you one of those seminar instructors? I ask because your posting often sound as you want to teach 8-)
Trick
Huajing
 
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Bao on Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:51 am

Trick wrote:
Bao wrote:If you don’t let your opponent shape his fists and aim his feet, then there will be no threat. This is what most Tai Chi practitioners do wrong. They tend to wait and try to follow strength and speed instead of filling in when the opponent is weak. Then if they do free push hands or try sparring they get in to a sparring mind-set and chase hands.

As I understand you think TJQ push hands competitors are doing it all wrong? Doesn't these kind of competitions also hold seminars, if so are you one of those seminar instructors? I ask because your posting often sound as you want to teach 8-)


I long to teach again. Haven't time to do that unfortunately. So sometimes I try to get all that off my system by a healthy dose of procrastination on the RSF. ;D

...Back to work... :'(
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5672
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Fubo on Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:20 pm

cloudz wrote:
I'm compelled to read it, it's important that light gets to illuminate the darkness.
At some point everyones either 'part of the problem', or 'part of the solution'.

Or let's just all go home and call the whole thing off.

I get that I have been very lucky and not had to sell my soul to another art and style, like so many like me.
I was lucky to have found people in my town/city who actually know how to train TCC in an alive and effective manner.
Who have coached succesful competitors not just in 'Sanda' or taiji grappling, but MMA also.

That's incredibly fucking rare, let's be real.
Any real tai chi chuan person should like it, if you had a teacher like that maybe it would be good for you too.

Instead of criticizing TCC from the ship you bailed to, people like you could end up part of 'the solution'.
Why people like you and Bao like to pile on and wollow in the negatives, is a great sadness, truly.

::)


On the contrary, I practice TJQ and the internal arts with as much seriousness today as I did when I started. I never "bailed" and I never "criticized" TJQ at all. I "criticized" the limitations of fixed step push hands competitions as a way to test "sensitivity" in a very limited way. I personally feel it's healthy to look critically at the culture that one's art exists as a means of making it better. I suppose I also "willow in the negatives" when I say that I see "BJJ butt scooting" in an equally negative light, as do many in the BJJ community.
Fubo
Wuji
 
Posts: 1210
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:13 pm

Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby cloudz on Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:36 am

Fubo wrote:
cloudz wrote:
I'm compelled to read it, it's important that light gets to illuminate the darkness.
At some point everyones either 'part of the problem', or 'part of the solution'.

Or let's just all go home and call the whole thing off.

I get that I have been very lucky and not had to sell my soul to another art and style, like so many like me.
I was lucky to have found people in my town/city who actually know how to train TCC in an alive and effective manner.
Who have coached succesful competitors not just in 'Sanda' or taiji grappling, but MMA also.

That's incredibly fucking rare, let's be real.
Any real tai chi chuan person should like it, if you had a teacher like that maybe it would be good for you too.

Instead of criticizing TCC from the ship you bailed to, people like you could end up part of 'the solution'.
Why people like you and Bao like to pile on and wollow in the negatives, is a great sadness, truly.

::)


On the contrary, I practice TJQ and the internal arts with as much seriousness today as I did when I started. I never "bailed" and I never "criticized" TJQ at all. I "criticized" the limitations of fixed step push hands competitions as a way to test "sensitivity" in a very limited way. I personally feel it's healthy to look critically at the culture that one's art exists as a means of making it better. I suppose I also "willow in the negatives" when I say that I see "BJJ butt scooting" in an equally negative light, as do many in the BJJ community.


I don't know, how many paragraphs do you write on BJJ forums about the evils of butt scooting ?
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
cloudz
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2403
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:00 am
Location: London UK

Re: LOL "internal" push hands my A$$

Postby Fubo on Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:34 am

cloudz wrote:I don't know, how many paragraphs do you write on BJJ forums about the evils of butt scooting ?


Not many, but that's only because there's already wide spread criticism of the "evils of butt scooting" in the BJJ community.
Fubo
Wuji
 
Posts: 1210
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:13 pm

Previous

Return to Video Links

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest