the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

My concern is that all the things that are against the rules are what generally make any martial art effective for self defense. Iow,

totally agree.

On the other hand it does offer a format that is good for attracting people
wanting to win at something considered to be "marital" art...that has been
defanged in the name of promoting it as a martial art .

Hopefully at some point some will and do start to question their training,
and take charge of their practice seeking deeper levels of understanding and usage.

Bhassler wrote:I've got lots of stories like that about getting my ass kicked. The point being, at a base level this type of push hands can build important skills that lead to other really nice skills, but once folks start training specifically to win the drill, it becomes less useful for fighty stuff and doesn't show much about actual ability.

I could as many others offer similar stories.
I do find it interesting and would agree that within the context
of a training drill to gain understand specific skill sets it can be a very good practice
once one understands the practice. Something that the poster "Appledog" has spoken about.

I read many here seemingly to try to include things in the "practice" trying to fix something
that it would seem from my POV they really dont understand nor really do and then label it as

"push hands" is it?

Small story:

While in peace park TW, I pushed with a westerner who happened to be there with a group.
we started and suddenly he went for a single leg take down which didn't work. Kinda funny as I was looking at him
asking him what he thought he was doing.

He mentioned "this is push hands I can do this" I said ok.

try it again out side of push hands. He tried it again it didn't work, I showed him why it didn't work and how
this might not be a good idea to do on a taiji practitioner. He smiled we went back to pushing, he got tossed around a little
and seemed to enjoy it.

I claim no skill, my point being that some may not develop any skill if they dont understand the skiills
their supposedly trying to develop through the practice.

The point being, at a base level this type of push hands can build important skills that lead to other really nice skills, but once folks start training specifically to win the drill, it becomes less useful for fighty stuff and doesn't show much about actual ability.

Very well articulated. I enjoy very free PH very much as a cooperative effort, as a mutual exploration of possibilities, but when it cross the border to competition and turns into a question of winning, it quickly loses it's usefulness.

Steve James wrote:I understand the point, but I wonder how people get to the point of solely using technique in the first place, and why there's a need for weight divisions if they have.

Regarding weight, CIMA isn't magic so weight matters. f=ma. If two people have equal skills the heavier person has the advantage.

Well, yeah, but the point was to find out who had more skill, no? Back in the day, the "Grand" champion at a tournament would be decided by bouts between the winners of the weight classes. In the original UFC, there were no weight classes. It's true that a heavyweight will usually defeat a lightweight of equal, or even greater skill. However, my point was about why people trained. And, there is absolutely no reason to think that an attacker will be the same size or smaller. It doesn't mean that someone my size can beat Brock Lesnar, either. Then again, no martial art is a guarantee.

Anyway, I was looking at the rules of the competition. They seemed to emphasize two things: orthodox technique and skill. Imo, the reason there are weight classes is because skill is not the only criterion for winning. Afa technique, I think it's that "technique" is supposed to resemble "form" or it isn't. If it doesn't resemble form, then there's no point in requiring it. I think it's difficult for competitions to look like forms, but I don't think it's necessary for self-defense or application.

No matter what the rules what is shown here is pretty basic skill

windwalker wrote:While in peace park TW, I pushed with a westerner who happened to be there with a group.
we started and suddenly he went for a single leg take down which didn't work. Kinda funny as I was looking at him
asking him what he thought he was doing.

He mentioned "this is push hands I can do this" I said ok.

try it again out side of push hands. He tried it again it didn't work, I showed him why it didn't work and how
this might not be a good idea to do on a taiji practitioner. He smiled we went back to pushing, he got tossed around a little
and seemed to enjoy it.

This is part of the problem with most Push Hands competitions. The rules, and the goal to get the points to win usually go against the principles used in training traditional Tai Chi Chaun. Many participants try to get the point and will put themselves in such a precarious position martially, never-mind the force on force used, etc.

In my mind, everything you train in your Tai Chi practice should reinforce the principles which would allow you to use it martially. I feel it is okay to try a push hands competition after one has a strong foundation and understanding in the traditional methods which follow the guiding principles. It will allow you to see how you react under pressure, but your goal shouldn't be necessarily to win, only to see how well you can do while adhering to the principles.

If one trains to "win" these competitions, you may become a Tai Chi Push Hands Champion, but it really does not say much about how good your Tai Chi Chuan is.

GrahamB wrote:

Rhen wrote:so we've seen and heard of this guy for years and when it comes down to showing his worth vs. a resisting opponent. Total fail:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViR1SjmSCsY



now if we can just get the other marketing gurus of tai chi to enter a event....hmmmm jake mace...Adam mizner....who else??

The head should align with the spine in any type of combat - if it looks like you're balancing a book on your head then game over.

I believe You have to have Facebook to look at this video:
Sifu Richard Clear demonstrating wave and spiral qualities both as a warm-up and as martial skill.
https://www.facebook.com/NewJerseyTaiCh ... PCUlng00qo

That 1st part in this video...."WOW"! I just realized that I should have paid more attention to some Popping and Locking and electric boogaloo.

Yeah noodle leg dance is sooo tai chi now. FFS

How many of you lazy bastards have actually tested yourself like him? Making a thread to shit talk about somebody who's competing is kinda low. It's not like he's lying to his students he's freely sharing a video of his skill in some structured competition.

choldstare wrote:How many of you lazy bastards have actually tested yourself like him? Making a thread to shit talk about somebody who's competing is kinda low. It's not like he's lying to his students he's freely sharing a video of his skill in some structured competition.

1. Many here have.

2. What do you think about the difference between the skill sets he shows in the vids from the classes and what he does on the mat?

Before I say anything, I just want to make it clear that I am not a fan of competitive PH at all because I think the way it is done utterly defeats the purpose of Taiji PH training. (The fact that PH competitions, especially in the free-moving step divisions, are often dominated by non-Taiji practitioners with backgrounds in grappling arts like Judo, wrestling, and Shuaijiao speaks volumes.)

PH is meant to be cooperative. The uncooperative, live training is in the Sanshou, or free-fighting/application training.

As for Mr.Clear, let's just say I liked him more when he was only teaching Silat.

I believe he broke some vertebrae back in January in a car accident. That he competed at all is pretty good to me.

this is my favorite: tai chi noodle leg technique

Clearly (no pun intended) this kid kept kicking him and probably could of kicked his butt.



Tai silat?

Funny when push comes to shove how many tai chi people can pull a car crash out of their back pocket