Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby chimerical tortoise on Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:44 am

Bao wrote:I also agree that some aspects of what CST absolutely could be labelled as jin, regardless you see the method as having something to do with the ground or not . Though I don't agree whith the generalization of the term/word/character. CST absolutely show use of dongjin, who could disagree about that?

Well, I am. Dongjin just means understanding force. You need to understand incoming force before you understand how to redirect it etc. You could label what he does in many different ways. What's the point of labels? CST just use a word for "thought". In IMA people like to use Yi. I don't like these ways of explaning physical action. Thought or Yi here is useless if there is no physical action. What he does to make it work has to do with leverage and angles, directions of meeting incoming force. People don't like to describe things in simplistic ways in terms of simple mechanics. I don't understand why. Maybe it still don't help people to get it with the body. You must learn to actually do something, teach your body how things feel when you do it right. And of course do instead of think. Then why use a word like think or intent? When the secret to do something is not to think, but to do? :-\


Sorry Bao, I think now I get what you mean by dongjin (懂勁) in which case I have to say that you don't 'use' or 'have' dongjin... you either dong (understand) or you don't dong! You're right, it isn't something like 纏絲勁 (chansijin) or 明勁/暗勁/化勁 (mingjin, anjin, huajin) or 聽勁 (tingjin) to describe a quality of one's movement or sensitivity - it just means you understand jin or not. Neither is jin unique to the IMAs. A lot of southern CMA uses it too - fajin and also the infamous 寸勁 (cunjin) or inch force, which to the best of my knowledge CST actually does not teach as it is at odds with what he does.

念頭 (nian tou) absolutely does not equate to think. That's actually the biggest problem in our training - the tendency to think rather than to just do it. It is a very specific 'thing' for lack of a better word, and the underlying aim of 小念頭 (siu nim tau/xiao nian tou) the little idea, the form, which is an efficient vehicle for enculturating the basics of nim tau. CST goes into a lot of detail on it in video that is publicly available on youtube, and his own writings, so I won't expound further here.

意 (yi) in the context of IMA is an awkward synonym and by no means as specific. Don't get me wrong, in other arts jin or yi or qi are crucial in defining and attaining skill... but if you want to be specific there is a different progression in CST's wing chun that does not map well through these concepts.
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby Bao on Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:54 am

chimerical tortoise wrote:it just means you understand jin or not.


Yes that's right, but in tai chi books, it's also used to describe a jin together with tingjin, nian, cun etc. So it's not only understanding intellectually, but to understand jin with the body and act accordingly. So understanding jin becomes a practical skill.

And yes, I understand that in WC, "thought" is something else than what MA use as "yi", that they are not the same.
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby chimerical tortoise on Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:01 pm

Bao wrote:Yes that's right, but in tai chi books, it's also used to describe a jin together with tingjin, nian, cun etc. So it's not only understanding intellectually, but to understand jin with the body and act accordingly. So understanding jin becomes a practical skill.

And yes, I understand that in WC, "thought" is something else than what MA use as "yi", that they are not the same.


To be honest I read it wrong at first and thought you meant 動勁 (dongjin, moving jin or jin expressed through movement)... to me [他]懂[得]勁 or [他]懂書法 (he understands jin, he understands calligraphy) makes sense grammatically with 懂 as a verb and 勁 as a noun... not 懂 as an adjective or 懂勁 as a specific noun. Are you sure that this is the case or is it a translated text? I apologise in advance if it sounds like I'm second-guessing yours or the translator's Chinese aptitude here.

But hey I don't read taiji books or train taiji so would have to defer to your expertise :)
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby Bao on Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:20 pm

I have read both versions, "move" and "understand". One might be due to a misunderstanding, but I think both makes sense in their own ways.
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby dspyrido on Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:31 pm

CST:

1. Never used the word Jin.
2. Spoke with great emphasis on structure & getting it right so as to be able to express it minutely & randomly. The analogy is learn to play the scales before you improvise.
3. Emphasized little idea (sil lum tao) as one of the keys. It is a method heavy on focus so as to learn to let go.
4. Spoke about power in terms that would confuse more than help those not aware of the anchor terms & language he used
5. He would spend a lot of time on structure and alignment being done under load and then would mix in little queues to bring focus and relaxation. Cant hold the structure when someone is pushing? He would place a finger between the shoulders and suddenly things improved greatly.

Summary: at the rudimentary level it's easy to draw parallels around concepts like grounding and redirection into the floor. But this breaks down at the more complex areas which CST could demonstrate.

There are several examples I can think of but one simple one was - get a grounded person (they are not leaning) to push against his bong sau. He could hold the posture & go on one foot. That's easy enough. Then the grounded person was told to push with sudden force. He'd keep the balance on one foot which is harder. Then the person would push (almost striking) with two hands and he would change from bong sau to tan sau which would send the guy stumbling but he would also flick it to a knife hand to the back of the head which looked effortless but actually had sting to it. All this was done parallel legged with no height change, no hips twisting and all pretty effortless (no large muscles were tensed).

On the surface many would look at the initial redirection part and say "ah ha" but it's just 10% of the picture.

BTW CST would also highlight weaknesses and limits on this. He knew if someone got to the legs it would be harder to apply this but he had some other interesting options.
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby jaime_g on Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:23 am

BTW CST would also highlight weaknesses and limits on this. He knew if someone got to the legs it would be harder to apply this but he had some other interesting options.

That sounds super interesting :D could you tell us a bit more about these highlights and options?
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby dspyrido on Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:30 pm

jaime_g wrote:BTW CST would also highlight weaknesses and limits on this. He knew if someone got to the legs it would be harder to apply this but he had some other interesting options.

That sounds super interesting :D could you tell us a bit more about these highlights and options?


I'll give it a shot. Grappling did not come up much & as mentioned he would highlight not to get caught out. I'll use wc terminology as best as i remember.

- kicks for someone bridging - use a forward thrust kick if they are stepping or side step with side kick if the are charging. Get out of the way of momentum.
- on the way in taking balance through sticking to halt momentum and take it to the ground or uproot it - plenty of examples out there on this
- head and torso control - this does not seem to come up much and I found it really useful. Bong sau gets applied on arms but against a neck or across the body it is also very effective. Same goes with fook or garn on the head. He would then mix in biu tze cutting and redirection on the neck which would take out the balance. The power from his frame was impressive.
- the mix of head control, balance taking would mix in with chi gerk/sticking legs (his applied power in his legs were again more powerful than they looked). This would actually allow him to slip out of single legs & even loose waist holds. He showed leg hooking to keep balance as well.
- the last one came up only briefly. It was a little seen move in biu tze where he would bend forward. Again it would be used in combination with head pressing, balance taking and leg work to extract the legs out which might be caught if someone is double legging. He did not emphasise it because he felt it was best to focus on not getting there.

Their was a lot of little refinements in his training method which could make things work that would not normally work for someone trying to mimic them.
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby Bao on Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:16 am

Thank you for sharing dspyrido. Most interesting. 8-) You are very privileged to have had the possibility to meet him.
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby chimerical tortoise on Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:09 am

+1

Thanks for sharing, dspyrido. Always glad to hear more about CST!

And impressive how consistent his attitude/teaching/approach sound by all accounts... wow.
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby nicklinjm on Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:36 pm

+1

Thanks for sharing Dspyrido - even though I don't practice WC your comments about CST's practice / ideas are real food for thought, have made me re-examine what I do!
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby bailewen on Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:59 pm

kind of amazing how little things change

lol
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby dspyrido on Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:50 pm

Thanks gents. Just a side note - what CST taught was template for his approach. Since then I have had other great instructors and have seen that they have achieved great things but from a different perspective (be it the use of the whole body for power or leverage, incredible stamina and timing in grappling or other things, the use of great technique etc).

So in the case of CST it's not always going to fit but there is plenty of food for thought.
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