Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby GrahamB on Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:40 pm

"This must be difficult for you to accept, since everyone already knows you as an authority on taiji, xingyi, clf, bjj, wrestling, internal power, and now CST wing chun."

Ian I have no idea why you keep saying that. You just sound kind of bitter and sad.


"I demonstrated that you're wrong. Call that trolling if you want."

So you just want to come here, jab your finger in my face and go 'See you're wrong! you're wrong! See! naah naah' but you won't add to the conversation, or engage beyond just playground antics.

Yeah, I'd call that trolling.
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby chimerical tortoise on Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:15 am

GrahamB wrote:I started the thread about the subject to start a discussion. I was really quite surprised that people, especially here, don't know what I thought were the basics of internal martial arts, as I've already explained.... Clearly my assumptions on what people know were wrong.


Graham, you keep quoting as if verbatim translated subtitles... taking the video way out of context despite others showing a wider range of material to fit you own agenda. And repeatedly either ignored (dspyrido) or belittled (cloudz, Ian) people more polite than me in trying to explain otherwise.

GrahamB wrote:I have no particular interest in CST or Wing Chun or his lineage. I didn't know who he was. I could have used a different video, but I just found that one by chance and thought - "Hey, this illustrates a fundamental point about Chinese martial arts quite nicely, I'll post it on the forum so others can see it..." It kind of feels like a waste of time to do that now.


These are very different basics from the "IMA" you seem to subscribe to. Have you ever assumed that what you thought were the basics of IMA, at least how you've described at length on the board, aren't the be-all-end-all?
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby GrahamB on Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:30 am

"These are very different basics from the "IMA" you seem to subscribe to. Have you ever assumed that what you thought were the basics of IMA, at least how you've described at length on the board, aren't the be-all-end-all?"

As I've realised from this thread this idea that there's a basic jin that people are all on the same page with just isn't there. I thought it was - my bad, I was wrong. Sorry if that's not clear, but I thought we'd addressed that a few pages ago. Is this still a sticking point? Can we move on?



"Graham, you keep quoting as if verbatim translated subtitles... taking the video way out of context despite others showing a wider range of material to fit you own agenda. And repeatedly either ignored (dspyrido) or belittled (cloudz, Ian) people more polite than me in trying to explain otherwise."

Ok, assuming that I'm wrong about it being the ground force that's doing the work, what's going on in the video then? I can't understand how that is being done with "structure" - in fact, he says explicitly it's not structure. So what is it? Qi?

Please tell me since you have more experience in this method - I'm really not attached to the idea of being right.
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby chimerical tortoise on Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:26 am

GrahamB wrote:As I've realised from this thread this idea that there's a basic jin that people are all on the same page with just isn't there. I thought it was - my bad, I was wrong. Sorry if that's not clear, but I thought we'd addressed that a few pages ago. Is this still a sticking point? Can we move on?


Noted.

GrahamB wrote:Ok, assuming that I'm wrong about it being the ground force that's doing the work, what's going on in the video then? I can't understand how that is being done with "structure" - in fact, he says explicitly it's not structure. So what is it? Qi?

Please tell me since you have more experience in this method - I'm really not attached to the idea of being right.


Your lack of understanding is your problem, not mine. Not when there's a comprehensive explanation someone else took their sweet time to write on pg.1 of this very same thread that you never bothered to respond to. Or your hissyfit little facepalm gif (was that directed at me? If so, thanks! The highest level of pi is to get your opponent to pi themselves ;D ). Or videos that Ian posted - one of which directly answers your question in the first few moments... from the same person whose video you started the thread with.

You've taken the same pissant tone on this board over the years, talking down to people who had a little more experience in xingyi, taiji, rma, bjj, to name a few... so why would I assume you'd be any different to anything I had to say?
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby GrahamB on Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:00 am

er, excuse me - I think being a pissant is the least of my faults. I'm sure there are many others ;D

I must be Dutch. :)

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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby Steve James on Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:56 am

The reality of the situation is that there is one Jin, from which all the others come. If you don't understand that then you've missed a big part of the puzzle. However, this is the situation that I see 99% of Chinese Martial Artists in anyway, so it's not like you're alone ;D How can I say there is one jin? Trace all the different types of Jin back to the source of their power... where does it come from? The ground.


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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby Bao on Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:29 am

Steve James wrote:
The reality of the situation is that there is one Jin, from which all the others come. If you don't understand that then you've missed a big part of the puzzle. However, this is the situation that I see 99% of Chinese Martial Artists in anyway, so it's not like you're alone ;D How can I say there is one jin? Trace all the different types of Jin back to the source of their power... where does it come from? The ground.


I must have missed a big part of the puzzle then.... :-\ I really don't agree. "Jins" don't need to be about any kind of power or need to have a source of power.

I also agree that some aspects of what CST absolutely could be labelled as jin, regardless you see the method as having something to do with the ground or not . Though I don't agree whith the generalization of the term/word/character. CST absolutely show use of dongjin, who could disagree about that?
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby Trick on Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:43 pm

Don't know much about Wing Chun, don't know who CST is. A couple of days ago I found this video, an old frail looking man showing some nice skill. http://v.youku.com/pad_show/id_XMjk4NDI ... %2587%2586
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby chimerical tortoise on Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:38 pm

Bao wrote:I must have missed a big part of the puzzle then.... :-\ I really don't agree. "Jins" don't need to be about any kind of power or need to have a source of power.

I also agree that some aspects of what CST absolutely could be labelled as jin, regardless you see the method as having something to do with the ground or not . Though I don't agree whith the generalization of the term/word/character. CST absolutely show use of dongjin, who could disagree about that?


For a taijiquan practitioner (that you are, right Bao?) that is probably a suitable way of describing the phenomena... the man himself just said it was 念頭 (nim tau). IME it's quite different from taiji but I don't have enough experience with taiji to speculate further, sorry :-\


Trick wrote:Don't know much about Wing Chun, don't know who CST is. A couple of days ago I found this video, an old frail looking man showing some nice skill.


CST = Chu Shong Tin (or Tsui Sheung Tin), one of Ip Man's senior students.

The man in the video is Ip Chun, one of Ip Man's two sons.
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby Bao on Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:25 am

chimerical tortoise wrote:
Bao wrote:I must have missed a big part of the puzzle then.... :-\ I really don't agree. "Jins" don't need to be about any kind of power or need to have a source of power.

I also agree that some aspects of what CST absolutely could be labelled as jin, regardless you see the method as having something to do with the ground or not . Though I don't agree whith the generalization of the term/word/character. CST absolutely show use of dongjin, who could disagree about that?


Well, I am. Dongjin just means understanding force. You need to understand incoming force before you understand how to redirect it etc. You could label what he does in many different ways. What's the point of labels? CST just use a word for "thought". In IMA people like to use Yi. I don't like these ways of explaning physical action. Thought or Yi here is useless if there is no physical action. What he does to make it work has to do with leverage and angles, directions of meeting incoming force. People don't like to describe things in simplistic ways in terms of simple mechanics. I don't understand why. Maybe it still don't help people to get it with the body. You must learn to actually do something, teach your body how things feel when you do it right. And of course do instead of think. Then why use a word like think or intent? When the secret to do something is not to think, but to do? :-\
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby Trick on Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:38 am

Bao wrote:
chimerical tortoise wrote:
Bao wrote:I must have missed a big part of the puzzle then.... :-\ I really don't agree. "Jins" don't need to be about any kind of power or need to have a source of power.

I also agree that some aspects of what CST absolutely could be labelled as jin, regardless you see the method as having something to do with the ground or not . Though I don't agree whith the generalization of the term/word/character. CST absolutely show use of dongjin, who could disagree about that?


Well, I am. Dongjin just means understanding force. You need to understand incoming force before you understand how to redirect it etc. You could label what he does in many different ways. What's the point of labels? CST just use a word for "thought". In IMA people like to use Yi. I don't like these ways of explaning physical action. Thought or Yi here is useless if there is no physical action. What he does to make it work has to do with leverage and angles, directions of meeting incoming force. People don't like to describe things in simplistic ways in terms of simple mechanics. I don't understand why. Maybe it still don't help people to get it with the body. You must learn to actually do something, teach your body how things feel when you do it right. And of course do instead of think. Then why use a word like think or intent? When the secret to do something is not to think, but to do? :-\

No brain no gain 8-)
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby Bao on Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:32 am

Trick wrote:No brain no gain 8-)


IMO, the problem with a lot of martial arts practice is not thinking too little, it's more abot thinking too much and over-thinking. When you understand something with your body, you do it without thinking. Very often when we succeed to do something we couldn't do before, we often react with a feeling that it was much different than we had thought or that it was much more simple than what we imagined. Thinking too much works like a barrier that prevents you from understanding with the body. Thinking can never replace the experience of doing. So if you believe that you need to first think in a certain way, or use your mind in a certain way, in order to do something physical, I believe that you cheat yourself. You prevent youreslf to achieve what you want to achieve, because doing is something very direct that happens right after not doing. There's nothing in between. Just not doing and then doing. Thinking is good for analysing when you have done something and understand how to do something with your body. But even then, if you don't understand what you do so well that it has already become a property of the body, it's sometimes easy to intellectualize away what you already can do and again, put the barrier of thinking between not doing and doing. So you can no longer do it.

.... ;D
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby LaoDan on Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:10 am

Bao,

I sympathize with your statements, but I also think that Yi is used for legitimate reasons. I suspect that the use of Yi does not equate with thinking (or over thinking) as you seem to view it.

I suspect that the intent (Yi) to pick up a cup (without needing to specifically think about any of the individual actions that one would need in order to accomplish this) results in a similar movement to what you describe as moving without thinking when it is understood with the body. One just intends to do something, and the body naturally (once trained) takes care of the details.

Yi, to me, is about the natural expression of a trained action without the mind being distracted by pieces of that action. When interacting with another person, it is common for the mind to be drawn to the point of contact, leading to resistance, disruption of the movement, etc, rather than the natural (without thinking, if you prefer) movements that we are capable of.

My interpretation of “Use Yi, do not use Li” (用意不用力) appears like it may be consistent with the way that you appear to view things, but uses a differing understanding of the word “Yi”. When the mind (attention, focus, etc.) is drawn to the point of contact with another individual (or to the other person’s force), then one often resorts to Li (resisting, or forcing the action), but if one moves with Yi, then the mind does not get trapped (or distracted) at the point of application, and this allows one to move differently (smoothly and without resistance). This different way of movement is what I think that we both are striving for, we just describe it differently.

Personally, I think that using the term Yi to differentiate the natural way of moving, as opposed to forcing the movements (i.e., using Li) due to the overemphasis on the point of contact and the opponent’s force, is a legitimate reason to use the term Yi (or something similar).
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby GrahamB on Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:20 am

Bao,

I think of it this way

1) there are lots of things the 'mind' can do, especially in relationship to the body. Thinking is only one of its functions.


2) Yi is better understood as part of a process to do something, rather than a thing in isolation. That is why they say Xin leads the Yi, Yi leads the Qi, Qi leads the Li.

Edit: LaoDan, I like the idea of picking up a cup of tea, probably because I'm British.

When people say they can feel their Qi they get you to do the hands magnets feeling thing. True you can detect something that way... I'm not entirely sure how it's useful in a martial arts sense though. A way to feel your Qi in a more useful way is to look at the cup of tea.. Think about picking it up.... Go to pick it up, but don't move. Something inside your arm changed. You can feel it. That was your Qi. Yi Quan guys spend a lot of time working with these things, but often use different words.
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Re: Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

Postby Bao on Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:34 am

LaoDan wrote:Bao,

I sympathize with your statements, but I also think that Yi is used for legitimate reasons. I suspect that the use of Yi does not equate with thinking (or over thinking) as you seem to view it.


I am not opposed to yi. And no, I don't equate it with thinking. But you need to learn things in the right order. If you don't understand how to use your body, all yi in the world become useless. If you don't understand things with the body first, it's hard to understand and make use of Yi. And again, when you really understand Yi, it will also become a property of the body, or a property of doing, so you won't even need to try to use yi. The Yi will already be there: “...after long experience, even intention does not need to be applied, for the body standards will always be conformed to.: – Hao Sharu.

Another aspect for Tai Chi is that yi has a very special use of yi that can be vastly different than from other arts, even from other schools of IMA. I wrote about Yi in my blog for a while ago. I gave an example of Tai Chi use of yi:

"...you can visualize someone holding your arm with one or both hands. Maybe your opponent grabs it as you hold your arms up in a guard, or when you are ready to strike. When someone holds you with a very strong grip, maybe a monster grip, there’s no point of trying to move the arm or fight yourself from the grip. Now you can only use whole body movement. So what you do is that you root your stance firmly into the ground and lock the angles from the hand to the waist and then use the whole body to move. But you must forget about his grip, trying to relax the whole side of the body, consider it dead. This is a hard thing to do. To be able to relax and move this part, you look away, to another side, maybe to a tree far away, and just let your whole body follow the movement of your eyes. So here, you use your intent to focus on something else so your body can follow without being distracted of someone holding you in a monster grip."

But if you consider this example, you must first understand how to use full body movement, and how to, in a most physical, practical sense, separate the substantial and instubstantial. The yi helps you putting everything together, but you must understand the individul parts of the mechanics first. This is something learned by doing, not by thinking, not by worrying about "yi" or "thought".

GrahamB wrote:2) Yi is better understood as part of a process to do something, rather than a thing in isolation. That is why they say Xin leads the Yi, Yi leads the Qi, Qi leads the Li.


Exactly.
...You won't teach this to people, or beginners especially, by speaking about yi or thought isolated from everything else. speaking about "using yi" or "using thought" when you teach something practically is frankly, and MHO of course, quite a useless way to teach.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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