Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

[cloudz]

Well you can consider that "IP"/ or "Jin" is one and only one thing in particular.. OR a confluence or combination of things. Personally, whilst I like what both of you are saying/ writing to an extent, I lean to the latter.

Jin is simply skill and or force/ skilled force. I think whilst you can say there's only one "force" ultimately, There are multiple body(and mind) skills that one can manipulate and produce force with. Hence why there are multiple references to many jins in the CMA/CIMA, producing various different qualities. These also don't always get used to reference force, but more simply perhaps a skill.

We can't just re write how people have used and continue to use language just to satisfy our own preferences or ideas..
Patrick good on you for bringing internal into the conversation, but it's not really any particular single kind of skill - like six directions stability IMHO..........
I much prefer to think of it in terms of how one arrives at the skills or forces. Did you have to use internal modality of training to get there or not?

[cloudz]

We can power things in two basic ways - 1) using local muscle power to manipulate things, or 2) borrow the force of gravity (or an opponent) pushing down on us and bounce it back up from the solidity of the ground and do something with it. Number 2 is Jin.

I think this is quite a false distinction.

No one uses one or other exclusively, so dividing them like this is a semantic device and little more. If I push a car, i use both. If I'm a boxer or wrestler I use both and so on and so forth.
It's just silly actually.

Jin is simply skilled force and it's broad not specific.
Like fa jin is broad and not specific (to how exactly/specifically) you're producing that force. It's skilled and explosive, but that could as well be CLF, Boxing, Karate whatever. You can get more specific of course and say Chen style taiji fajin etc. so on and so forth..

That makes much more sense and is much more useful. I will add "to me", but that's just my modest streak talking.

[GrahamB]

If you can't do number 2 or felt it then you are right, it would make no sense.

[cloudz]

I suppose that's quite "clever" of you. Stupid but clever...
What you want a jin contest.. because you know, I'll put my shit against yours any day of the week.

But you know what's your "jin" without say Song, which is a skill (that is combined with force..) And are you aware that some lineages of Taiji actually use the term "song jin"?
probably not, but you are under the assumption that you and your mate Sigman know it all and have everything figured and laid out..

How much does "song" factor into your example of Mifune and what he's doing?
Anytime you want to challenge me over what I can and can't do or what I do or don't know about.. Well Graham come and see, you're more than welcome.
Otherwise you can leave the elitist bitchy comments to yourself.

Like I don't know ground path and gravity, rebound force.. As I recall I was the person who highlighted that stuff to you when not long ago YOU were saying the exact same story about Chansi jin. That it was the "one jin". You even wrote a blog post around the same time as the thread here, which I also responded to ... Jesus dude!

Do you want me to go find that thread and show you up.
You have a short memory don't you.

When someone disagreees with you your response is basically to throw your toys out the pram, and be an insulting dickhead.
Pat on the back for you then eh.

[cloudz]

Who really uses localized muscle power anyway in martial arts ?

And what do you even mean by it. How does that work. Is that what boxers and wrestlers do, please explain that.
Which martial arts/ artists use only localized muscle power and what does that even mean exactly.

Everyone uses the ground and gravity in conjunction with their weight in some capacity as well as muscle/ kinetic chains. You can argue that that can be refined to a high(er) level and I would agree.

But the distinction you made was a pretty lame attempt at defining Jin a certain way. The whole "localized" spiel is meaningless. Internal guys love using that "whole body power" spiel. But it doesn't hold up to scrutiny in of itself. Boxers and wrestlers know how to unify their whole bodies muscular strength just fine and they know how to use the ground to augment it too, Wrestlers know how to borrow strength from opponents too, not just the ground.

So frankly if that's how you arrive at "jin", it's very narrow, pointlessly narrow as far as CMA/CIMA goes. It also disagrees with conventional definitions and uses. Otherwise please provide your precedents and sources, research etc. I have no problem with anyone having jin - but the definition and distinction used to arrive at what you mean by it, I just find false and fabricated.

Rather than simply fall back on "you don't know it or how to do it", come with something better.
After all it's just your own credibility being damaged here. Certainly not mine. Come with a firm argument to counter mine.
Because everyone and his dog knows what it means when you can't.

And no! you can't phone your friend. Which let's face it, you seem to be keenly intent on swallowing every line he feeds you hook line and sinker.

[Bao]

He show a clever use of leverage and angles. If you want to call that jin it's up to you.

Huh? That is like saying, a book is simply paper that is tied together. I dont get it.
In addition who else is showing this skill?

A book can be simply paper tied together. But simple things are much harder to make look perfect than more complicated things.
( As a side note.... Lol, I am just about to finish a homepage for a client. I usually have this kind of work finished in a couple of weeks. This took more than four month. What did the client want? An elegant and minimalistic homepage. The toughest job I've got yet - minimalism.)

No, I don't believe that the mechanics are very complicated. What he does is in it's essence very simple. But you forget the aspect of perfection and precision. For instance, it takes many years of practice to become good in playing pool games or playing the violin because you need to practice your nervous system to learn how to not make any unnecessary movements, shut of all excessive muscles, so you can execute a movement with absolute precision. When people get good in something though, it looks very simple and easy to do. I think this is what people who discuss IMA tend to forget, that some things that looks very simple needs a certain type of precision and that this type of precision takes a whole of practice, maybe a decade of practice or more to achieve an execution of movement that looks effortless and spontaneous. The "Jin" here is not an energy like Qi or intent or similar. It's just the skill of doing something very precise in an unrehearsed, inuitive manner.

[windwalker]

And what do you even mean by it. How does that work. Is that what boxers and wrestlers do, please explain that.
Which martial arts/ artists use only localized muscle power and what does that even mean exactly.

good questions. Jin is distinct from what is called Li in that it has a penetrating quality to it.
Like the water in a fire hose, as opposed to the hose itself.

"The wave medium is not the wave and it doesn't make the wave; it merely carries or transports the wave from its source to other locations. In the case of our slinky wave, the medium through that the wave travels is the slinky coils.

In the case of a water wave in the ocean, the medium through which the wave travels is the ocean water. In the case of a sound wave moving from the church choir to the pews, the medium through which the sound wave travels is the air in the room. And in the case of the stadium wave, the medium through which the stadium wave travels is the fans that are in the stadium."
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/w ... -is-a-Wave

If one takes this and applies this to lot of questionable demos that some might question reactions shown,
this may help in the understanding.

"Consider a common phenomenon observed at a softball game - the collision of a bat with a ball. A batter is able to transport energy from her to the softball by means of a bat. The batter applies a force to the bat, thus imparting energy to the bat in the form of kinetic energy.

The bat then carries this energy to the softball and transports the energy to the softball upon collision. In this example, a bat is used to transport energy from the player to the softball.

However, unlike wave phenomena, this phenomenon involves the transport of matter.
The bat must move from its starting location to the contact location in order to transport energy.

In a wave phenomenon, energy can move from one location to another, yet the particles of matter in the medium return to their fixed position. A wave transports its energy without transporting matter".http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/w ... -is-a-Wave

The distinction between isolated or untrained force IME is that the "energy is transported without transporting the matter"

Most bodies, find it very difficult in dealing with this because the nervous system is attuned to dealing with the matter that transports the energy, whether its contained in an object, a ball, or a fist. In expressions of "jin" While interesting in demos, one might ask what is different,
what advantages are there to issuing force in this way.

People might train to do this, and still not be able to apply it to any type of combative setting.
Would it not be more interesting to talk about what or how one can or has used this as opposed to continually defining it.

What is that one finds using it that gives one the edge or advantage
over not having it... when as JW says "fist meets face"

[cloudz]

So this is Dr. Yangs take on "jin" as used in the CMA. Dr. Yang is a pretty good authority on things Chinese and of that martial culture..
It's a prettty long and in depth article that touches various bases. But it agrees with my basic premise which is all I really need here.

There are many types of Jin

If Graham or his mentor can provide some actual Chinese source for their definition, martial or otherwise that would be awesome. Is it in some martial arts book somewhere or other no one else has heard of perhaps?

the link: http://legacy.ymaa.com/articles/generating-jin

the article in all its glory. The diagram he refers to can be found through the link. I know some folks here don't particularly like hearing or using the word "qi", so if that's you, maybe, look away now.

Personally I would probably couch it in terms of skill, but this is a common Chinese cultural view of (martial) Jin. It's not really that I don't appreciate or even work with "qi" (energy/ sensation, energetic sensation, kineasthetic feeling/awareness) I just think it often complicates things, for some audiences, and that's maybe better avoided if and where possible.. As well "qi" can also form part of what we describe as skill here, so skilled force works for me as an alternate to what is generally described by Dr. Yang for "Jin".

Jin, or Martial Power, can generally be divided into three categories: Hard Jin, Soft-Hard Jin and Soft Jin. Among these, Hard Jin uses the most muscular power, followed by Soft-Hard Jin and finally Soft Jin. But no matter which Jin, in order to manifest maximum power you must have both the strength of the physical body (Yang) and a sufficient supply of smoothly circulating Qi (Yin). “Qi”, which is pronounced Ki in the Japanese arts, is the Chinese word for “energy”, and pertains to all forms of energy in the universe. In martial arts and qigong, it specifically refers to human Qi, the bioenergy or lifeforce within every cell of the human body.

The external physical strength manifested in specific external movements is called “External Jin”; it is a Yang manifestation of Jin. The internal Qi’s build up and circulation is called “Internal Jin”; it is the Yin manifestation of Jin. When this internal and external coordinate and support each other harmoniously and efficiently, it is called “the unification of internal and external”. (The spelling of the word Jin is used to avoid confusion with another important concept in Chinese martial arts with the same pronunciation, "jing", which means "essence".)

You should also understand that Jin can be again divided into Yang Jin (commonly called “Attacking Jin”) which is aggressive and used for an attack, and Yin Jin (commonly called “Defensive Jin”) which is defensive. There is another category of Jin, which is neither for attacking nor defending. No matter which category, when the Qi is manifested into a physical form, it is called “Emitting Jin” (Fa Jin).

Let us define what Jin is and how different Jins are classified. Theoretically, in order to activate the muscles to generate force or power, the mind must lead the Qi to the area where the muscles should be energized. For example, when you push a car, you must first generate an idea, and from this mind, an electromotive force (EMF) is generated. From this EMF the Qi is led to the muscles for energization. Through the nervous system (a highly electrically conductive system) the muscles are stimulated and contract, thereby generating action. The Chinese dictionary gives two main meanings for “Jin.” The first is “strong, unyielding, muscular;” this is usually applied to powerful, inanimate objects. For example, “Jin Feng” means a strong wind. It can also be applied to more abstract feelings of strength, as in “Jin Di” which means a strong enemy. The second dictionary definition of Jin is “Qi-Li” or “Li-Qi”, which refers to muscles which are supported by Qi. Using only your muscles is considered Li. However, when you use your concentrated mind to lead the muscles to do something, Qi will flow to where you are concentrating and enliven the muscles. This is considered Jin.

There are many types of Jin, but the one thing they all have in common is that they all deal with the flow of Qi. The most obvious type of Jin is “manifest Jin”, where you can see something happening, as when you push someone. Sensing another person’s motion or energy is also considered a type of Jin. In fact, in the highest levels of “sensing Jin”, you actually sense the Qi flow of your opponent and thereby know his intentions. These sensing Jins are enhanced by increasing the Qi flow to your skin. In general, the higher the level of Jin, the more Qi and the less muscular strength is used.

In the martial arts, it is said that Jin is not muscular strength alone. This means that although you must use your muscles every time you move, Jin is more than just muscular strength and proper alignment. There are several different kinds of manifest Jin. When you rely primarily on muscular strength, but also use Qi and your concentrated mind, it is considered “Hard Jin”. This kind of Jin is usually easily visible as tensed muscles. When muscle usage is reduced and both Qi and muscles play equal roles in the Jin, it is called “Soft-Hard Jin.” When muscle usage is reduced to a minimum and Qi plays the major role, it is called “Soft Jin.” Soft-Hard Jin and especially Soft Jin, are usually expressed in a pulse. Soft Jin is often compared to a whip, which can express a great deal of force in a very short time, concentrated in a very small area. When you snap a whip, it stays loose as it transmits a wave or pulse of energy along its length to the tip. Similarly, when you use Soft Jin your muscles stay relatively relaxed as you transmit a pulse of energy through your body. This is done with the tendons and the ends of the muscles, supported by Qi. 
 


When a Soft Jin is manifested, the emission of Jin is a relatively short, smooth and relaxed pulse of energy, without any angular changes in direction. The pulse can be long or short, near the body or at a distance. It can be a sudden contraction and expansion as you bounce the opponent away, or an even sharper “spasm” as you strike or break something.

The "Depth of Jin" illustration may help you understand the difference between Jin and muscular strength (Li). The vertical coordinate represents the depth to which power can penetrate and the horizontal coordinate represents the elapsed time. The areas under the curves represent the power generated for each curve. We assume that the areas under the curves are the same, i.e., the power generated for each curve is equal. In curve 1, the power is generated, reaches its maximum, stays at the maximum for the time and then drops to zero. Without strong Qi support, this is a typical example of Li; muscular strength predominates and penetration is limited, as in the average punch. With Qi support, it would be considered “Hard Jin.” In curve 2, both muscles and Qi are involved and the power is at its maximum for the shorter time. Since the power generated is the same as with curve 1, the peak has to reach higher, which means there is greater penetration. In order to do this, the muscles must be relaxed to allow the Qi from either the local area or the Lower Dan Tian (elixir field) to flow smoothly to support them. The Lower Dan Tian is located in the center of your abdomen, and is known to be the center of the body’s energetic circulatory system. This is the general idea of “Soft-Hard Jin.” In Soft-Hard Jin, commonly the body is soft and relaxed so the Qi can be led to the area where the Jin will be manifested. Once the Qi arrives, a slight but sharp muscular tension is intentionally generated and the power is manifested. This is the Jin used predominantly for striking in soft-hard martial styles, such as White Crane Kung Fu. In curve 3, the time in which the power is generated is even shorter. The muscles must be extremely relaxed to generate and express this sharply penetrating power. In order to reach a deep penetrating power, speed is a crucial key for successful Soft Jin manifestation. Naturally, Qi plays the predominant role in this “soft” Jin. Curve 3 is typical of the Jin used for striking in the internal arts, such as Taijiquan (tai chi).

From the point of view of muscle usage, curve 1 is like a wooden staff, curve 2 is like a rattan staff and curve 3 is like a whip. The wooden staff is stiff like tensed muscles, the rattan is more flexible, and the whip is soft; its power sharp and focused. Even curve 3, which is a very high level of power, is still not the highest power in the martial arts. The highest level of the Qi manifestation into Jin can be represented by line 4. In this level, the muscular strength is reduced to minimum and the Qi plays the major role of the power manifestation. When a martial artist has reached this level, he can transport his Qi into his enemy’s body through the acupuncture cavities to shock organs and cause damage or death instantly. The time used is extremely short and the penetration is deeper than is possible with Jin or Li. This is known as the skill of “Pressing Cavity” (Dian Xue ) or “Pressing Primary Qi Channel” (Dian Mai/Dim Mak ). Detailed understanding of the body’s Qi circulatory system and which points are vital at which time of day is necessary for these techniques to be effective.

(Editor's note: Dim Mak is controversial, and is considered mythical in modern times. Many people do not believe it to be possible, and in fact they do not believe that Qi or the body’s energetic circulatory system even exists. However, in traditional Chinese martial arts society, it is well known and understood. In addition, during World War 2, the Japanese performed extensive studies on the Qi circulatory system, using Dim Mak techniques on captured Chinese civilians from the Manchou territory (Northeast of China). By carefully recording the data resulting from these "experiments", torturing and killing many people in the process, they verified the accuracy of their knowledge of the body’s energetic circulatory system and the effectiveness of the Dim Mak techniques. This information has been published in other countries, and was made available for publication in America, but upon reading the details after translation into English by YMAA, it was decided to be unethical and dangerous to publish the information.)

Li can be considered closer to Hard Jin in which muscular strength plays the major role in power manifestation. It is said that Li or Hard Jin is derived from the bones and muscles. The Qi is supported from the local area. Soft-Hard Jin and Soft Jin originate from the tendons and are supported strongly by Qi, which is generated in the Lower Dan Tian. Since the tendons are emphasized in the Soft-Hard Jin and Soft Jin, the muscle fibers can be relaxed, allowing the Qi to flow through them and support them. If your force is derived from the bones, there is a strong tendency for you to resist and meet your opponent’s force directly. When your force is derived from the tendons it is easier to be flexible and elusive, to disappear in front of the opponent’s attack and to appear at his weak spot.

In order to have stronger Qi, you need a meditative mind, which can generate a stronger EMF. Through this concentration, your spirit can be raised to a highly focused stage from which you can govern your entire being more efficiently. When this happens, you will be able to manifest your physical power to its maximum.

The subject of Jin is discussed in depth in many of Dr. Yang's books, including
"Taiji Theory and Martial Power" and "Essence of Shaolin White Crane", and in the "Taiji Martial Applications DVD".

Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming, is a renowned author and teacher of Chinese martial arts and Qigong. Born in Taiwan, he has trained and taught Taijiquan, Qigong and Chinese martial arts for over forty-five years. He is the author of over thirty books, and was elected by Inside Kung Fu magazine as one of the 10 people who has "made the greatest impact on martial arts in the past 100 years." Dr. Yang lives in Northern California.

[Bao]

In fact, in the highest levels of “sensing Jin”, you actually sense the Qi flow of your opponent and thereby know his intentions.

Sorry clouds, but not all of what Yang says is true. "There are many types of Jin, but the one thing they all have in common is that they all deal with the flow of Qi." Jin doesn't have to be a definition of anything that have to do with qi.

I don't need to explain my position further. I am so tired of all of this talk about jin and the use of this character that I had to write a long blog post about it... Like therapy...

[cloudz]

And what do you even mean by it. How does that work. Is that what boxers and wrestlers do, please explain that.
Which martial arts/ artists use only localized muscle power and what does that even mean exactly.

good questions. Jin is distinct from what is called Li in that it has a penetrating quality to it.
Like the water in a fire hose, as opposed to the hose itself.

Sure, but I was trying to get at what is meant by localised muscle as opposed to say spread out muscle use or whole body usage.
Whether it actually means anything relevent. It doesn't. A boxer doesn't just use his arms to punch for example.

If you want my opinion.. As it relates to the Chinese definition and culture; boxers will generally use hard jin and hard-soft jin.
We all use qi whether we are that consciouss of it or not. Obviously training it just raises refinement and awareness of it.
Combining it (the concept and practices of qi) with martial training is what Chinese martial arts have done to greater and lesser degrees.

Of course you are going to get different beliefs and some people scoffing at it.. And they might be great fighters too.
But sadly, many people will not see that as besides the point. But never the less it is.

[cloudz]

In fact, in the highest levels of “sensing Jin”, you actually sense the Qi flow of your opponent and thereby know his intentions.

Sorry clouds, but not all of what Yang says is true. "There are many types of Jin, but the one thing they all have in common is that they all deal with the flow of Qi." Jin doesn't have to be a definition of anything that have to do with qi.

I don't need to explain my position further. I am so tired of all of this talk about jin and the use of this character that I had to write a long blog post about it... Like therapy...

hey,

I was going to put some disclaimer but I thought there might not be any point. I'm not asking you all take everything he says or everything in the article as gospel or at face value. No way - I want people to evaluate and think for themselves! Maybe I don't either - buy the whole article wholesale, but I appreciate his explanations anyway.

I think you can read and know intentions to some degree. some people will talk about it in terms of "qi", others will say reading body langauge, subtle shifts and tells etc. you know.... sensitivity, sensing force, listening to force, understanding energy blah blah.. everyone can do it and everyone does it to various degrees and success levels.

It's all the fucking same shit to me. Words, I want to meet someone who has forgotten the words!!!! Is that you Bao?? is it !??

[cloudz]

Bao,

As I recall, you've been quite vocal about not being a fan of the word/ use of "qi". So maybe you're allergic to much of that article I expect.
That's fine too, no worries. I get it, it's just that I'm past it and over it. It's just a word man.

If I was "that guy" I would pull some elitist bitchiness like; you just don't know how to do it, or what it is even !
But, alas, I wouldn't do that to you man

[Bao]

Bao,

As I recall, you've been quite vocal about not being a fan of the word/ use of "qi". So maybe you're allergic to much of that article I expect.
That's fine too, no worries. I get it, it's just that I'm past it and over it. It's just a word man.

If I was "that guy" I would pull some elitist bitchiness like; you just don't know how to do it, or what it is even !
But, alas, I wouldn't do that to you man

I am allergic of all words that are used to confuse or for marketing purposes only. I think it's a real pitty that skill is not described for what it is and that everyone use fancy words instead of plain, simple English.
... If you say something like "you don't know how to do it" or "your shit is fake" or "you're full of it", I wouldn't care. I just write my thoughts to discuss and share whatever little I have and not to market myself as a teacher or anything similar. So you can say whatever you want. I don't care.
...I am so fed up with all of this fancy marketing and all pretty words. But I bet some people are probably just as fed up with me.

[cloudz]

fair enough all good.

I just thought it would be good to pull something off the net about the meaning of Jin in a traditional Chinese martial context. I thought Dr. Yangs effort would be as good as any. Regardless of what some of us as individuals might think or say/ do things differently..

The take away for me here is that not once is this funky definition of jin that Graham is touting brought up. But also states that the definition basically involves some variant of "qi-li", "li-qi". If some credible source, whatever it might be, is posted of some other definition that tallies with the idea Graham proposes as being "the truth..", then great. But I'm still waiting, and you know... it might be a while eh. I suggest we don't hold our breath!

[Patrick]

Who really uses localized muscle power anyway in martial arts ?

And what do you even mean by it. How does that work. Is that what boxers and wrestlers do, please explain that.

Look at this picture:


In A you see the gentleman using ´ankle strategy` to keep his stability. The weight of mass is controlled by shifting the weight on the balls of the feet ("being rootet in the feet"). If for example he would try to push something or someone he can lean his body mass into it without compromissing his balance - naturally he needs to develop this skill further. You could say that in Yi Quan you are learning to use this ankle strategy in all movements. You shift your weight around by using your feet while keeping inside your limits of stability (= ankle strategy) and use the power of the ground (like wanting to jump from your backfoot, but not actually jumping).

There are systems that do not really use the whole body mass, but still keep stability. Most of them generate power by hip rotation like Karate, boxing or other methods like "wave" movements.
There are other systems that sacrifice the stability for power in a sudden burst like wrestling, judo.