Jin in Chinese Martial arts - Wing Chun wisdom

[cloudz]

Patrick,

Talking about mass and whether you throw it around or not, whether you stabilize or not, how you stabalize or not.
Really has nothing to do with the recruitment of muscles for generating power/force, in martial arts.

They are 2 distinct things or do you disagree about that? If not how are you exactly tying them together here?

There are some valid reasons why fighters / competitors might do this. Some to do with reach and risk/ reward. But I think, basically, you're changing the subject on me quite frankly. It's surely that you don't think some boxers and wrestlers can't keep their stability just fine right ?

[Patrick]

Exactly, you are not trying to recruit anything. You are simply relying on your mass and your stabilizers. That is exactly the difference.
That is why I speak of coordination training. IMA is coordination training and it has nothing to do with increasing your power. Your power then comes only secondary from the ability to stop your own weight from going too much forward. Like a car breaking. That is why Wang Xiangzhai said something like you are not becoming stronger if you try to become stronger. Looks like mumbojumbo but it isnt.

THE SYSTEMS CONTROLLING BALANCE & POSTURAL STABILITY

While “balance” is a commonly used term to describe the ability to maintain an upright position, “postural stability” is a more specific description of human balance. Postural stability can be defined as the ability of an individual to maintain their center of gravity (COG) within the base of support (BOS). Postural stability can be further identified as “static” or “dynamic” postural stability. An example of static postural stability is standing quietly without movement, while dynamic postural stability refers to the ability to maintain posture while performing specific movements, such as reaching forward or walking.

Many complex physiologic and neurological processes control postural stability. The musculoskeletal system and central nervous system (CNS) are the main systems regulating postural stability. While these systems can be delineated anatomically, they must be functionally understood as one “sensorimotor system.” The sensorimotor system is recognized as a “looped” system involving afferent (sensory) information from peripheral receptors entering the central nervous system to be processed, and the efferent (motor) information sent back to the musculoskeletal system for action.

Afferent information includes signals from sensory receptors in peripheral joints. These receptors provide information from muscular receptors (muscle spindles and golgi tendon organs), joint capsule and ligamentous mechanoreceptors, and other receptors for touch, pressure, temperature, and pain sensation. Cumulatively, this afferent information is known as “proprioception,” a term first defined by Sherrington in 1906 as the sense of position, posture, and movement.2 More recently, Lephart and Fu3 defined proprioception as the cumulative afferent input from specialized receptors into the CNS. They further subdivided proprioception into the awareness of joint position (i.e., joint position sense) and discernment of movement (i.e., kinesthesia).

Maintenance of posture relies on proprioceptive input from three important regions: the sole of the foot, the sacroiliac joint, and the cervical spine.4‐6 These three areas have been identified as postural regulators due to their density of mechanoreceptors and influence on movement and postural stability. Clinicians must act to ensure proper positioning and functioning of these regions during exercise and rehabilitation in order to facilitate adequate and appropriate proprioceptive information.

The afferent information is then processed in the CNS at one of three levels: the spinal cord (for reflexive activation); the lower and mid-brain (for automatic activation) or the cortex (for voluntary movements). Information from the sensorimotor system is then combined with information from the eyes and inner ear to coordinate an appropriate stabilizing reaction. Thus, the three main systems controlling balance are the sensorimotor, visual, and vestibular systems.

Once processed in the CNS, efferent information is sent to peripheral muscles. These efferent signals travel through alpha and gamma motor neurons to coordinate motor responses through both facilitory and inhibitory signals. These signals are sent to motor units (groups of muscle fibers innervated together) to either “contract” or “relax.” The proper coordination of these signals between agonists and antagonists is the key to coordinated movement.

Humans use specific balance and righting reactions to maintain upright posture. The responses to changes in balance and posture are innate, automatic, and predictable in normal adults. These “automatic postural responses” (APR) are motor strategies that have been identified in response to specific directions of postural sway to maintain upright posture. Researchers have classified automatic activation of muscles in normal individuals through electromyography in response to anterior and posterior postural perturbations.7,8 These APR precede voluntary movement and are not modified by conscious effort.9

Balance reactions can then be combined into higher level “strategies” to maintain postural stability in response to larger perturbations. These strategies include the ankle, hip, and step strategies. Horak and Nashner7 reported that when small challenges were applied to the base of support, the ankle musculature was dominant in maintaining postural stability. When larger challenges were applied however, the hip joint became active to reposition the center of gravity over the base of support. Finally, if individuals could not maintain their center of gravity over their base of support in response to a challenge to postural stability, they took a step to move their base of support under the center of gravity.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3812830/

http://www.ptdirect.com/training-design ... d-function
http://www.eolss.net/sample-chapters/c0 ... -18-00.pdf

[Patrick]

It's surely that you don't think some boxers and wrestlers can't keep their stability just fine right ?

Oh come on, I am not saying anything like that. I am saying just that they value other attributes more than stability or using their own mass fully. But the focus on stability and using ones body mass (like I described) is the main difference. And this difference shifts the focus much more to trainig the nervous systems, hence why I said coordination training.

[GrahamB]

You're all wrong. According to my wife there is only one Jin, and it's this one.

[I-mon]

I think this article by Zhang Yun is much better than that of Dr. Yang. "Jin in Taijiquan":

http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/TJ_Jin/TJ_Jin1.html

1. Li and jin

Martial art is like any other types of knowledge, it took a very long time to develop. At first,
people had no principles or concepts, only hands-on experiences. At some point those
experiences accumulated to a point where it was possible to summarize them as general
theories or principles. People can then test out those ideas. And if they turn out to be
correct, they could be used to improve the practice. Better practice in turn leads to further
understanding of underlying principles, thus the cycle continues.

It is only natural that in the beginning, these concepts are undifferentiated, simple, and
coarse, and only became clearer and more refined gradually over time. In terms of
understanding force, the first major distinction made in Chinese martial art is between that of
li and jin.

In everyday usage, both of these words mean physical force, and can be used
interchangeably. Very often, people use jin to denote a very large force. In martial art,
these are technical terms with more precise definitions. Li is simple muscular force, what we
call “untrained force”, “natural force”, or “instinct force”, because no prior training is
necessary before using it. When we contract our muscles in a simple, natural manner,
doing things like bending the arm to bring a fork to the mouth, or extending the arm to push
a drawer shut, we are using li.
Li is simple, its major attributes are quantitative: how big, and how fast.

If li is the raw, basic material, then jin is the sophisticated, finished product. It is li transformed by practice,
something that produces the desired results with higher effectiveness and efficiency.

Example: two identical twins, same size, same muscle composition – same level of li, one is a professional golfer,
the other never golfs. Stepping onto the course for the first time, the untrained twin, lacking any knowledge of the
sport, can only use what he was born with - li. If his first drive does not go as far as he hoped, his natural instant
will lead him to use more li – swing the club harder, with more speed. His trained sibling uses something far more
powerful and sophisticated. He has jin, and use it to great effect: he is able to drive the ball much further, place it
on the course with much greater accuracy, and often with much less effort.

Jin is complex, its qualities are not just quantitative but qualitative.

Li is a product of nature, jin a product of nurture. Everyone is born with the ability to generate and use li, no one
has jin until they have gone through the necessary training. As we have seen in the previous example, when we
start on an unfamiliar, new activity, simple muscular force is all we can use because we do not know anything
else. This force tends to be highly clumsy, awkward, and inefficient. For this reason in martial art we also call li
zhuo li – awkward, untrained force. Zhuo also means muddy, the opposite of clearly distinguished, clean,
polished, and refined, characteristics we commonly associate with jin. As we become trained, that li is gradually
transformed into jin, something much more effective and efficient. For this reason jin is called “trained force”.

Transforming the primitive li into the sophisticated, refined jin is the one of the main objectives of any
sophisticated martial art practice.

2. Wai Jin and Nei Jin

In the past 400 years we saw the rise of a new class of martial art. More effective than ever, their real
significance is that they represent a giant step forward in efficiency. This was made possible by the second major
development in the theory of force in martial art. By this point people had enough knowledge about jin to make
further distinctions between two main types of jin: wai jin - external jin, and nei jin – internal jin. New knowledge
gained from the research into internal jin gave birth to internal martial art. Its members are Xingyi Quan, Taiji
Quan, and Bagua Zhang.

To be called an internal martial art does not mean it uses only nei jin. No martial art can be complete without the
use of wai jin. So internal martial art just means the emphasis during training and fighting is on nei jin, with wai jin
playing the supporting role. Conversely, to be called external martial art means it uses mostly wai jin and very little
nei jin.

So what exactly are wai jin and nei jin, and why does internal martial art favors the use of nei jin? To answer that,
we will first take a look at what they are, and then how they are tied to the central philosophy of internal martial
art. As Taiji Quan is the most systematic and detailed in making these distinctions, we will use it to illustrate these
ideas.

2.1 Definition

Wai means outside or external. To be outside is to be visible. So wai jin means the type of jin where, when used,
an observer can, just by seeing it, understand every aspect of that force: how that force is stored and released,
its speed, angle, direction, etc. We are using wai jin for example when we do a quick and hard punch.

By definition wai jin is yang. Yang in Taiji is not the pure yang, it has a little bit of yin in it. This is called gang
zhong rou – hard containing the soft. The advantages of wai jin are that it is quick, hard, sudden, and powerful.
When released, the feeling is like that of an explosion or eruption, unstoppable, capable of destroying everything
in its path. It can be used to seriously injure or kill the opponent.

The disadvantages of wai jin are: generally the movements are large, and given its external nature, making it
relatively easy to detect and defend against. The duration of its power tends to be short. And once released, you
cannot easily change its trajectory or any other attributes of that force easily. Finally, the storage and release of
power here are completely separate processes.

The key points of using wai jin are speed, power, and accuracy. Practicing wai jin is about fulfilling our potential.
Some internal martial arts masters can release incredible power. It is about absolute quantity; we want to build up
as much of it as possible during practice.

Common types of wai jin used in Taiji Quan are: duan jin – breaking force, chuang jin –ramming force, cun jin –
one inch force, leng jin – cold force, dou jin – shaking force, and chong jin – charging force, etc.

Nei means inside or internal. To be inside means it is something that cannot be seen, only felt. An example of nei
jin is nian jin in Taiji Quan. When we can stick to our opponent perfectly without either struggling against or lose
connection with him, there is almost no physical movement at the contact point between two of us, yet inside our
force is having its effect. The external movement is so minimal and subtle that it escapes the eye.

By definition nei jin is yin. Yin in Taiji is not the pure yin, it has a little bit of yang in it. This is called rou zhong
gang – soft containing hard. The advantages of nei jin are that it is small, long, changeable, and combines the
storage and release process. Small means the movements required are in general very small, sometimes not
even visible externally. Long means when the force is released, the effect can continue on for a relatively long
time. Changeable means its quantity and direction can be altered during its release. The processes for storing
and releasing are one, with no clear separations and breaking points in between. The combination of all these
attributes makes it easy for us to conceal our true intentions. With nei jin, making accurate determinations about
its amount, direction, angle, direction, etc, are very difficult, making it much harder to defend against.

The main disadvantage of nei jin is that, although you can use it to move people easily, it is not powerful enough
in itself to be truly destructive.

The key points of using nei jin use are changeability, subtlety, and concealment. Practicing nei jin is about
developing more subtle and refined skills. Nei jin is more about the relative than the absolute. It is qualitative in
that it is more about how to control and use our force. Most high-level skills in Taiji Quan come from this type of
training.

Common types of nei jin used in Taiji Quan are: chang jin – long force, chen jin – sinking force, zhan jin –
adhering up force, nian jin – sticking to force, lian jin – linking force, and sui jin – following force, etc.

[Taijikid]

In weight lifting, clean and jerk. Which part is jin and which part is li? Is there nei-jin involved?

[cloudz]

Exactly, you are not trying to recruit anything. You are simply relying on your mass and your stabilizers. That is exactly the difference.
That is why I speak of coordination training. IMA is coordination training and it has nothing to do with increasing your power. Your power then comes only secondary from the ability to stop your own weight from going too much forward. Like a car breaking. That is why Wang Xiangzhai said something like you are not becoming stronger if you try to become stronger. Looks like mumbojumbo but it isnt.

see below, this is frustrating as hell..

[cloudz]

It's surely that you don't think some boxers and wrestlers can't keep their stability just fine right ?

Oh come on, I am not saying anything like that. I am saying just that they value other attributes more than stability or using their own mass fully. But the focus on stability and using ones body mass (like I described) is the main difference. And this difference shifts the focus much more to trainig the nervous systems, hence why I said coordination training.

Look Yiquan or any kind of specific training in CIMA is not the point. That you think it is is the annoying part. FFS. I have no issue with either "groundpath" or "six direction stability"..... jesus fuckety fuck fuck.

The point and disagreement is the definition and meaning of JIN. In Yiquan you say "Fa Li", in taiji we say "Fa Jin", so let's pretend they are one and the same between us ok.

My disagreement is was about the meaning and definition of JIN: the general CMA martial dictionary. Not even the Taiji or Yiquan one specifically; but the one in CMA. Because if you remember the quote I replied to referenced CMA and JIN. as does the title.

If you can't or won't speak on topic, just leave it out I think.
Why are you talking about different stuff that is pretty irrelivent to anything I was really saying... or trying to ask regards what was said and so on.

Jin is a CMA term it involves force recruitment sometimes, sometimes hitting someone.. and in CMA and CIMA even though we may not focus on getting stronger or more powerful directly by training muscle we still employ skills and forces, basically either skill relating to a force of our own or from elsewhere. It's a total misunderstanding on your part that I'm apparently talking about getting more powerful or stronger.. WTF? I really don't get it actually.

All I did was ask a pretty simple question about what someone meant with a particular terminology they used, and you jump in with all this irrelivent stuff.. to the discussion/ disagreement..

Unless you're capable of getting in his head, you aren't going to answer for him what he meant, and you didn't even attempt to answer my question in any direct and meaningful way.. so.. ugh

[cloudz]

There's one or two more things I want to add about that Mifune clip.

TING JIN
and sui jin – following force

[Ian]

You need a basic stance, then you just need to relax, then channel their force to the ground.

0:15


1:48


Btw, Chimerical Tortoise is a long-term student in this style. You're not.

[GrahamB]

Ian, what's your point?

[Ian]

Graham, I think it's pretty clear - your idea about this style, at least the sentence I quoted - is wrong.

You can choose to listen to CST’s specific reply to this ‘channel the force into the ground’ idea. Or Nima’s. Or Chimerical Tortoise’s, who speaks fluent canto and has been training in this style for years.

[Bao]

I think this article by Zhang Yun is much better than that of Dr. Yang. "Jin in Taijiquan":

It is only natural that in the beginning, these concepts are undifferentiated, simple, and
coarse, and only became clearer and more refined gradually over time. In terms of
understanding force, the first major distinction made in Chinese martial art is between that of
li and jin.

....

In everyday usage, both of these words mean physical force, and can be used
interchangeably. Very often, people use jin to denote a very large force. In martial art,
these are technical terms with more precise definitions. Li is simple muscular force, what we
call “untrained force”, “natural force”, or “instinct force”, because no prior training is
necessary before using it.

...

If li is the raw, basic material, then jin is the sophisticated, finished product. It is li transformed by practice,
something that produces the desired results with higher effectiveness and efficiency.

Jin is complex, its qualities are not just quantitative but qualitative.

Li is a product of nature, jin a product of nurture. Everyone is born with the ability to generate and use li, no one
has jin until they have gone through the necessary training.....As we become trained, that li is gradually
transformed into jin, something much more effective and efficient. For this reason jin is called “trained force”.

...Transforming the primitive li into the sophisticated, refined jin is the one of the main objectives of any
sophisticated martial art practice.

...Nei means inside or internal. To be inside means it is something that cannot be seen, only felt. An example of nei
jin is nian jin in Taiji Quan. When we can stick to our opponent perfectly without either struggling against or lose
connection with him, there is almost no physical movement at the contact point between two of us, yet inside our
force is having its effect. The external movement is so minimal and subtle that it escapes the eye.

Common types of nei jin used in Taiji Quan are: chang jin – long force, chen jin – sinking forcey, zhan jin –
adhering up force, nian jin – sticking to force, lian jin – linking force, and sui jin – following force, etc.

IMO, we need to be even more critical when a sort of leader writes or states something, regardless if you call him "master" a head of an organization, lineage holder or whatever. Zhang Yun contradicts himself a lot. Different types of jin do not need to have anything to do with refining Li. Chenjin, nianjin, lianjin, suijin, what do these have to do with refining strength? I don't agree with his definitions of wai and nei either. But hey, he is the master, I'm not, so who am I to complain?

But what he does good is that he doesn't really define Jin as a single term that you can use separately. He use "Jin" more to label different kinds of terms together. There are no other definition of Jin that it's a Chinese character used in martial arts for labeling many different kinds of developed skills. Using the character of Jin individually without another character is nonsense.

[GrahamB]

Ian,

Posting video without any comments is pretty unclear, actually.

You post some of my comments, out of context, without the rest.

You appeal to authority without making an argument of your own.

I watched some of the first video - it's very long. In it he says something like "this isn't very easy to explain" and tries various ways to explain what he's doing - the things the translator translates all sound contradictory. But just look at what he's doing - he's making a connection to the ground then going out of his way to break structure and says things along the lines of 'once you have this power your structure does not matter'.

What is this power? What do you think it is? Where else is it coming from if not the ground?

[Ian]

Graham,

You know more about what CST was doing than CST, despite a direct refutation from CST himself?

Impressive.

CST spent 50 years refining his teaching, trying to make it as accurate as possible for his Chinese and Western students.

He didn't use 'jin' to describe his work, and he specifically stated he didn't tolerate incoming forces by redirecting them into the ground, and he didn't generate power from the ground.