the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

GrahamB wrote:...You appeal to authority...

AKA ‘getting the person we're discussing’s opinion on the matter we're discussing'.

...the things the translator translates all sound contradictory...

Maybe not so contradictory if you speak canto, and are a long-term student...Like Chimerical Tortoise.

@Ian, could you explain what he is doing then? The explaination "nim tao" state is not really satisfactory. He also said in many videos that he is using his joints, ie. as leavers...but a leaver requires a stable base. No? His student Mr. King often talks in videos of relaxing the spine from head to bottom and moving with your center, so why if not for creating a stable base is he stressing this? Thanks.

Perhaps you could enlighten us then Ian? You seem to have all the answers.

Ian wrote:0:15

Around 2:20 CST says he is pushing really hard. As a thought experiment lets say that he is just off the ice in an ice rink and the lady is on the ice with hard leather sole shoes. Are you saying that the lady would not be pushed back (slide) on the ice? If not, why not?

cloudz wrote:There's one or two more things I want to add about that Mifune clip.

TING JIN
and sui jin – following force

That's true. Tingjin is not just "force" (even if opposed to Li). There's also dongjin, etc. And, as cloudz points out "Zhan, Lian, Nian, Sui" could all be considered jin.

Anyway, no answers here.

GrahamB wrote:Perhaps you could enlighten us then Ian? You seem to have all the answers.

No no, I wouldn't dare. Clearly Sifu Graham has all the answers and is never wrong.

Ian wrote:

GrahamB wrote:
You need a basic stance, then you just need to relax, then channel their force to the ground.

0:15


1:48


Btw, Chimerical Tortoise is a long-term student in this style. You're not.

So is this chemical tortoise in the second video

Ian wrote:

GrahamB wrote:Perhaps you could enlighten us then Ian? You seem to have all the answers.

No no, I wouldn't dare. Clearly Sifu Graham has all the answers and is never wrong.

So you have nothing to say? Just had to post something to tell me my shit if fake? You're about 10 years late on that one.

Well done, give yourself a pat on the back. Good work, you must be proud.

Wayne: No it isn't, I'm not on youtube and only met CST briefly a few years before his passing.

On the rest of this thread:

To understand taijiquan, you have taiji's own peng-an-lü-ji, etc. as a framework for achieving the results. I would expect that whether you study taiji, xingyi, bagua etc. that if you do not follow the prescribed framework it will be hard to get those specific results. Sure, for all, if done correct no can defend... unstoppable power, birds can't take off, flies can't land, clothes on fire, whatever. But to think that other things that one has no hands on experience with can be explained by an unrelated schema is silly. It's like saying an boxing champ has great pengjin when he has never done taijiquan before. That's evidently not how he reached his skill level, so why the false attribution? Taiji and wing chun are not the same, which is something that CST himself reputedly stressed.

FWIW there are others on RSF who have interacted with CST too, who are presumably older and more knowledgable than me. One of whom chimed in quite early on in a much more mature and diplomatic way than I am able. Also as Ian has pointed out... Nima King in Hong Kong (who is probably one of the best English-speaking teachers in CST's material), my own sifu, or quite a few other CST long-term students, are also accessible online or in person. I suggest the curious to seek them out.

"Taiji and wing chun are not the same, which is something that CST himself reputedly stressed. "

I agree - they're not the same, and for the record, I never said they were.

Ian wrote:

Great video Ian. I love his passion and fascination for his art, and the way he holds his body speaks for itself. He may have learned to go beyond structure at times, but his structure has clearly been fundamentally changed by his training. To me it seems as though he's actually talking more about the use of the mind, and how the structure and force are influenced by the intent, in a relatively advanced practitioner who has already engrained the basic coordinations of the style.

GrahamB wrote:So you have nothing to say? Just had to post something to tell me my shit if fake?

You mean like posting facepalms, implying people don't know IMA basics, "I think you're wrong about everything and you don't even understand the basics, and have wasted your life in internal martial arts"?

Odd... you really like correcting people, but don't like being corrected.

Anyway, I posted a CST response to your CST hypothesis. You can't get more on-topic than that.

But Sifu Graham is never wrong!

I can picture this scenario:

Graham - Do you redirect force into the ground? Do you generate force from the ground?
CST - No.
Graham - Yes you do. Where else does the force come from, if not the ground? How else could you possibly...
CST - [talking about li]
Graham - No it's not, it's jin.
Everyone else at the seminar - [groans internally]

There's no reason to be like this Ian. I started the thread about the subject to start a discussion. I was really quite surprised that people, especially here, don't know what I thought were the basics of internal martial arts, as I've already explained.... Clearly my assumptions on what people know were wrong. I have no particular interest in CST or Wing Chun or his lineage. I didn't know who he was. I could have used a different video, but I just found that one by chance and thought - "Hey, this illustrates a fundamental point about Chinese martial arts quite nicely, I'll post it on the forum so others can see it..." It kind of feels like a waste of time to do that now.

Do you want to just keep trolling the forum or actually contribute to the discussion?

I'll ask again - maybe you could answer Patrick's question?

"@Ian, could you explain what he is doing then? The explaination "nim tao" state is not really satisfactory. He also said in many videos that he is using his joints, ie. as leavers...but a leaver requires a stable base. No? His student Mr. King often talks in videos of relaxing the spine from head to bottom and moving with your center, so why if not for creating a stable base is he stressing this? Thanks."

And again, these are his words from the original video:

"now let my force go to the ground,.... don't fight me by pulling up."

"now it's going down to his feet(i.e the ground)"

"if i use strength to push on him and he use strength to fight me."

"now pull up, and can you feel it in your shoulder? and this way the force can't go down to his feet."

I demonstrated that you're wrong. Call that trolling if you want.

This must be difficult for you to accept, since everyone already knows you as an authority on taiji, xingyi, clf, bjj, wrestling, internal power, and now CST wing chun.