Tai chi "Empty force" is not what you think: Peng jing . . .

[marvin8]

Tai chi: "Empty force" is not what you think. (Peng jing, Kong jing, Fa jing)

Ian Sinclair
Published on Aug 26, 2017

Any demonstration of tai chi power requires something to push against. A deflated ball will not bounce. But the buoyancy is an important part of defensives structure. So, being bounced away is a sign of good defensive structure. You could neutralize the push easily, but doing so would put you in a more vulnerable shape.
The structure combined with awareness and sensitivity is a powerful advantage in a real fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAeZHk4t56I

[Steve Rowe]

He needs a microphone - couldn't hear a word of that.

[charles]

He needs a microphone - couldn't hear a word of that.

It might help, but I had no difficulty in hearing him.

Generally, I liked what he had to say during the portion that I watched, the first 10 minutes or so.

[windwalker]

The clip does not show "kong jin"

[Bao]

the buoyancy is an important part of defensives structure. So, being bounced away is a sign of good defensive structure. You could neutralize the push easily, but doing so would put you in a more vulnerable shape.

Don't agree. "buoyancy" is a potential, not something that should be apparent or something that you should let your opponent feel. Being bounced away means that you let yourself be pushed away. It means that you use your "buoyancy" evidently and that your timing and the sense of distance is bad, as you let your structure be caught. Neutralizing or not letting him get even a slight chance to even start to push or throw you is better. If your shape would be more vulnerable by letting your opponent stumble on air would again mean that your timing and distance is off, or that you collapsed.

The structure combined with awareness and sensitivity is a powerful advantage in a real fight

There seems to be a glitch between a pushing demo and developing a powerful advantage for real fighting...
Pushing is shown, the second is talk and is not being demonstrated...

The clip does not show "kong jin"

Agreed. No empty force or anything similar shown.

[robert]

the buoyancy is an important part of defensives structure. So, being bounced away is a sign of good defensive structure. You could neutralize the push easily, but doing so would put you in a more vulnerable shape.

Don't agree. "buoyancy" is a potential, not something that should be apparent or something that you should let your opponent feel. Being bounced away means that you let yourself be pushed away. It means that you use your "buoyancy" evidently and that your timing and the sense of distance is bad, as you let your structure be caught. Neutralizing or not letting him get even a slight chance to even start to push or throw you is better. If your shape would be more vulnerable by letting your opponent stumble on air would again mean that your timing and distance is off, or that you collapsed.

I agree with you, but I think within the context of the video, as training, Ian makes a good point. The student doesn't neutralize, he collapses and Ian points out that you want to maintain peng jin, not collapse. In training I don't think a person just does full blown taiji. I think there is a step wise progression to learning. There is something of a chicken and egg problem. Do you teach neijin first or neutraizing first or both together? Teaching both together seems confusing at best. Ian seems to to be teaching jin first which I agree with, but if you're working on jin and haven't learned how to neutralize then you will be bounced out and I think that is better than collapsing. Once you learn how to maintain jin then you can learn how to neutralize while maintaining peng jin.

[Bao]

I agree with you, but I think within the context of the video, as training, Ian makes a good point. The student doesn't neutralize, he collapses and Ian points out that you want to maintain peng jin, not collapse. In training I don't think a person just does full blown taiji. I think there is a step wise progression to learning. There is something of a chicken and egg problem. Do you teach neijin first or neutraizing first or both together? Teaching both together seems confusing at best. Ian seems to to be teaching jin first which I agree with, but if you're working on jin and haven't learned how to neutralize then you will be bounced out and I think that is better than collapsing. Once you learn how to maintain jin then you can learn how to neutralize while maintaining peng jin.

Hard to give a straight answer. There is a learning problem, I can agree with that and understand that argument. At the same time, I think that there's a wrong mindset in tai chi schools. The problem for tai chi practitioners is not about maintaining structure, the problem is how to relax and not letting the structure get in the way... while at the same time not collapsing. I don't believe that the answer is about clinging to pengjin, keeping angles etc. That's all good for learning, but it's just a very basic step and what is shown in the vid is not exactly how you use it. Too much concern for structure and evident pengjin will prevent you from change or make your changes slow. If you are going to be able to react quick enough you need to be formless, shapeless. I think much of the mistake people do comes from what Ma Yueliang describes:

"People misunderstand Peng. There is another word with the same sound and only one stroke different that means something like structure or framework and people often think this is what is meant by Peng. If you base your Taiji on this incorrect meaning of Peng then the whole of your Taiji will be incorrect. Peng Jin is over the whole body and it is used to measure the strength and direction of the partners force. But it is incorrect to offer any resistance. It should be so light that the weight of a feather will make it move."

If you offer any resistance, if you offer any solid surface or let your opponent feel your peng, then you are doing it wrong. IMO, starting to teach a solid structure and teach students to feel strength of structure is the wrong way to go. It's wrong from the beginning and you will need to re-learn your whole mind-set to get it right. That can be harder than to teach the correct way from the beginning.

Edit: You can see in the vid, about from 16.00 onwards when they play more free like PH that Ian is often using his structure straight against the other person's pushes, like he is "testing structure", offering his partner to feel the structure like a solid surface. So now when you have Ma's quote above you can make your own conclusions about Ian's tai chi...

[robert]

If you offer any resistance, if you offer any solid surface or let your opponent feel your peng, then you are doing it wrong. IMO, starting to teach a solid structure and teach students to feel strength of structure is the wrong way to go. It's wrong from the beginning and you will need to re-learn your whole mind-set to get it right. That can be harder than to teach the correct way from the beginning.

I think that's the goal, but I don't think that is the starting point. I don't equate jin with structure. Understanding jin and employing jin allows the student to achieve a greater degree of fang song.

[Bao]

Understanding jin and employing jin allows the student to achieve a greater degree of fang song.

That's a very good point. That is what should happen. But I don't agree that this is what usually happens. People tend to get stuck on a rudimentary technical level, jin, relying on structure or whatever. So how should fangsong be introduced and taught? Who will say to the student when it's enough testing your bouncing skill, keeping angles skill or using structure skill? If you are used to feel your own body in a certain way, and to have a certain way to feel your opponent, it's not always so easy to switch to something else. In one way, I do believe that very different and even contradicting aspects can, and maybe even preferably should, be taught at the same time. But then you really need to keep them separated and make students having a clear goal of what to achieve. Not easy.

[middleway]

You could neutralize the push easily, but doing so would put you in a more vulnerable shape.

Why? I think this basic premise is flawed.

For instance, 0:50 & 1.34 in this video demonstrate why the idea of 'shape maintenance' is not necissary all the time.

[robert]

Understanding jin and employing jin allows the student to achieve a greater degree of fang song.

That's a very good point. That is what should happen. But I don't agree that this is what usually happens. People tend to get stuck on a rudimentary technical level, jin, relying on structure or whatever. So how should fangsong be introduced and taught? Who will say to the student when it's enough testing your bouncing skill, keeping angles skill or using structure skill? If you are used to feel your own body in a certain way, and to have a certain way to feel your opponent, it's not always so easy to switch to something else. In one way, I do believe that very different and even contradicting aspects can, and maybe even preferably should, be taught at the same time. But then you really need to keep them separated and make students having a clear goal of what to achieve. Not easy.

I agree that is not what usualy happens. A lot of push hands competitions people have shown on youtube look like shoving matches. Fang song is interesting in that it is not only the foundation of practice it is also a fairly high level goal. From my limited experience most taiji teachers introduce fang song pretty early in practice. From what I've been taught fang song is at the heart of traning. In standing, silk reeling exercises, form, and push hands part of what a person should be doing is scanning for tension and learning how to release it.

In another thread someone pointed to Li Yiyu's For Hao Weizhen to Cherish and thinking about another discussion on dong jin I did a rough translation of a section of THE TAIJI BOXING TREATISE OF WANG ZONGYUE OF SHANXI from that work.

由著熟而漸悟懂劤。由懂劤而階及神明。然非用力之久。不能豁然貫通焉。

As one's skills mature they will gradually become aware of and understand jin (dong jin). From understanding jin (dong jin), step by step, one reaches a mysterious understanding. It's not possible to suddenly understand how to be strung together, to connect; you must train for a long time.

Tension interfers with connection, being strung together. Fang song is a necessary part of developing jin. If people rely on structure I don't think they've got the idea of jin yet. As it says above you must train for a long time to understand taiji's jin.