Liang DeHua — Yang Taiji: Push Hands, Apps, Seize & Fa, etc.

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Re: Liang DeHua — Yang Taiji: Push Hands, Apps, Seize & Fa, etc.

Postby nicklinjm on Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:20 am

I have been watching Sifu Liang Dehua (Leung Tak Wa)'s videos on Youtube for some time now. IMHO he demonstrates very good peng, song, ting and splitting of yin / yang, one of the better Yang stylists I have seen. Whether this skillset would apply in a confrontation is other styles is a point that has been done to death on this forum.

Anyone know Sifu's Liang's lineage?
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Re: Liang DeHua — Yang Taiji: Push Hands, Apps, Seize & Fa, etc.

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:41 am

I was told on another site Yang Shao Hao
Can you put a link to his youtube
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Re: Liang DeHua — Yang Taiji: Push Hands, Apps, Seize & Fa, etc.

Postby marvin8 on Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:14 am

nicklinjm wrote:I have been watching Sifu Liang Dehua (Leung Tak Wa)'s videos on Youtube for some time now.

wayne hansen wrote:I was told on another site Yang Shao Hao
Can you put a link to his youtube

The 1st video in the OP was from Tak Wah Leung's website: https://www.youtube.com/user/chiangmai0taichi/videos
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Re: Liang DeHua — Yang Taiji: Push Hands, Apps, Seize & Fa, etc.

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:24 am

I thought there might have been another site
Thanks
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Re: Liang DeHua — Yang Taiji: Push Hands, Apps, Seize & Fa, etc.

Postby marvin8 on Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:21 am

nicklinjm wrote:Anyone know Sifu's Liang's lineage?

In the following article, the name of the teacher wasn't mentioned. However, the style is mainly Yang Chen Fu and Yang Shao Hou.

Excerpt from Sifu Liang De Hua – Q&A – Yang Style Taijiquan, https://www.themartialman.com/sifu-lian ... taijiquan/
2ND SEPTEMBER 2017 BY KIEREN KRYGIER wrote:
Sifu Liang could you please share how you first came to study Taijiquan?
I was born in Hong Kong, my father came from Foshan. We are cantonese people. My father knew some Hung Gar fist and also some Wu style Taiji from Hong Kong, so when we moved to Thailand he started to teach me both of those arts. When I was in high school I became involved in some fights with gangs and other students, because of this my father decided that he would stop teaching me. I went on to study at university but was still having many problems in my life and became involved in several bad situations. Then one day I saw a movie about Zhang Sanfeng. It was a kung fu movie that talked about Taijiquan and some philosophy. The movie really made me look at myself and help me to realise that I need to do make some changes to improve my life. So I started looking for Taiji, even though I didn't really know anything about the style. Even when my father was teaching me, I didn't know he was teaching me Wu style. In Thailand at that time there wasn't any books you could read to learn about Taiji, and there wasn't any internet, so I the only option was to just look for someone who could teach me. With the help of some friends I found a teacher who agreed to accept me as a student. He explained to me that what he was teaching is Yang Chen Fu style Taijiquan, I had no idea who Yang Chen Fu was and just wanted to learn. I said to him "Okay please teach me".

After around 6 months of training with that Sifu, he told me that his older cousin from China would be visiting Thailand and that I have to learn from him. When he told me this I was very confused and didn't know why I needed to learn from him. However he explained that this master is very good because he has learnt many styles including Yang Chen Fu and Yang Shaohou style. So following my Sifu's recommendation I began to learn from him.

What did the Master from China teach you?
When I began training with him he taught me the middle frame, long hand and 2 small frame sets. Also he taught me the fast frame and several push hand techniques including how to use your fingers when pushing. How to strike the pressure points. How to seize the tendons and many other things. Even at that time I still didn't fully understand the history of Yang Chen Fu or Yang Shaohou, I just trained hard and continued to learn it. Prior to learning with these 2 Sifu's I was drinking a lot and was involved in many bad things like I mentioned before. But after learning from him I never touched alcohol again and returned to university to complete my studies. My life improved in so many ways.

When you first crossed hands with the Master how did he feel?
Actually when we first met I can say that I wasn't convinced about his skill. When we touched the first time, I placed my guard in front of my face and he just pushed my own fist into my nose. He bust my nose and there was blood everywhere so I couldn't continue. Then not too long after I got the opportunity to touch with him again for the second time. He touched my arm and used Fajin sending me flying out of the store into the road. I had no idea what happened or how he did it.

Was training with this Master intense?
Yes, sure. He would come to the store where I was working everyday to teach and train me. I was living above the store with my first teacher so I would train with him in-between also. Sometimes the Master would have to leave Thailand and fly back to China for a few weeks, so I would train with my original teacher when he wasn't there. I still feel very lucky to have found these people who shared something very special with me and helped me get my life back on track. . . .
Last edited by marvin8 on Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Liang DeHua — Yang Taiji: Push Hands, Apps, Seize & Fa, etc.

Postby marvin8 on Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:51 am

marvin8 wrote:Liang DeHua Taijiquan
about a week ago

Seizing and Fa from sitting position (EngSubbed)
Can we use Taijichuan while sitting? Does Fa-Jin come from the legs?

Sifu Liang explained the relationship between the standing posture, root and Taiji skill (English subtitled): https://www.facebook.com/LiangDeHuaTaij ... 623835782/

In the sitting video and Part I interview video @ 8:38 to 10:40 in the OP, Liang demonstrates na jin (seizing) and fa jin. In the Part I interview video @ 10:07:
Liang DeHua wrote:“It works together with fa jin. We also need fa jin and na jin. . . . You have to control at the contact point."


Following are some excerpts on na jin (seizing energy).

From Tai Chi Chuan Martial Power: Advanced Yang Style:
By Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming wrote:The second na jing controls the opponent without grasping or using any particular form. The techniques and theory of this na jing are higher than those of qin na discussed above. In this na jing, you use your adhering and sticking ability on your opponent’s joints to lead him and neutralize his slightest movement. When he attacks, you neutralize; when he withdraws, you stick and follow. You do not actually grasp your opponent, but you make him feel that he cannot attack you and he cannot get away from you, as if you were a sheet of flypaper that he can’t shake off. When he tries to withdraw, you follow him, maneuvering him subtly into a bad position. When he attacks you evade and lead his attack farther or in a different direction than he intended, and then apply subtle pressure to hold him in an exposed position.


From another website:
by Audi » Wed Aug 22, 2001 wrote:. . . The goal of our neutralization is to escape the attack and “seize” the opponent’s power (na jin) so that he or she can no longer change the situation. As executed in the form, this would most likely be because the opponent could not deal with power our combined arms would be adding to his or her waist turn into us. If we are successful, we temporarily abandon most of the more subtle T’ai Chi skills and issue our power (fa jin) into the opponent, by extending our posture. . . .

Transforming the opponent’s jin seems to have two goals: saving oneself from harm and also putting the opponent in an untenable situation. The latter is what I understand by the term “seizing energy” (na jin). The core meaning of the Chinese word “na” is to manipulate with the hand, and it is the normal word used in Chinese expressions that can be translated into English as “take,” “hold,” “carry,” and “bring.” It is the second word in the expression “qin na,” (seize [and] hold) which refers to techniques of grasping and immobilizing the opponent’s joints. Although “seiz[ing]” seems to be the customary T’ai Chi translation, perhaps “hold[ing]” or “control[ling]” might have more accurate connotations.

From the Intrinsic Energies of T’ai Chi, I understand “seizing the opponent’s energy” (na jin) to refer to the moment when the opponent can no longer transform (hua) your energy to escape. At one point, the book describes merely making the opponent apprehensive as the equivalent of “seiz[ing]” his or her energy. I have taken this as a reference to a “deer-in-the-headlights” moment, when the opponent’s spirit is immobilized.


From The Intrinsic Energies of T'Ai Chi Ch'Uan:
By Stuart Alve Olson wrote:Seizing Energy
Na Jin


“Seizing Energy is comparable to the two energies of Enticing
and Neutralizing, but is more difficult in practice. It is a very
important energy within T’ai Chi Ch’uan. If you are unable to
Seize, then you will be incapable of Issuing. Yet, if you can
Seize, then and only then can you Issue. If not, Issuing will be
of no use. The inability to Issue stems from incorrect Seizing—
the vanguard of Issuing is Seizing. . . .”

“Seize an opponent without grasping with the hands. If the
hands grasp it will be inefficient and easy to Neutralize. The pivotal
axis for Seizing lies entirely in the waist and legs. You must
Seize the opponent without forceful grabbing. To just foolishly
Seize with force makes it very easy for the opponent to get rid of
you. It is entirely the mind-intent and qi that sets the Seize into
motion. The stepping methods, body methods, and direction of
the Issue are of equal importance. If this was not mentioned
here, the teaching would never be handed down to others. . . .”

Exercises for Developing Seizing Energy

Image

A and B stand opposite of one another. B stands ready to
punch A with his left fist, his right foot forward and the
weight in his rear left leg. A stands in a relaxed stance, with
feet shoulder width apart and arms hanging down along
the sides of his body.

First Movement
Image

B exhales and punches toward A’s head. A exhaling, performs
a change step, so the right leg is moved forward and
places his weight in his left leg. Simultaneously A brings his
left hand palm, palm facing upward, and attaches it to the
outside of B’s wrist.

Second Movement
Image

A then turns his waist completely to left side, and turning
in his right foot, while attaching his right hand palm to the
back of B’s left wrist, with palm up (there is no grabbing of
B’s wrist here) and simultaneously brings his right arm
elbow up to B’s left elbow and applies a slight pressure. B’s
punching energy will then be extended and his body will
lean forward into a defective position.

Note: The idea behind this exercise is for A to learn
how to Seize an incoming force without applying force.
When learning this technique it will be easier to learn how
to Issue energy the instant you feel the opponent has been
Seized.


Does anyone have more comments on the use of na jin (seizing energy) against a resistant opponent, outside of push hands?
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Liang DeHua — Yang Taiji: Push Hands, Apps, Seize & Fa, etc.

Postby windwalker on Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:51 pm

Image


it might be better to understand whats wrong with the illustration.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faO4EeBOjkc

Boxers use a lot of taiji concepts, in a real time environment


Aside from the posture shown in the illustration, one has to really question
the basic idea of having so much time or space in order to deal
with something within kicking range with out controlling the space.
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Re: Liang DeHua — Yang Taiji: Push Hands, Apps, Seize & Fa, etc.

Postby marvin8 on Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:07 am

windwalker wrote:Image


it might be better to understand whats wrong with the illustration.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faO4EeBOjkc

Boxers use a lot of taiji concepts, in a real time environment


Aside from the posture shown in the illustration, one has to really question
the basic idea of having so much time or space in order to deal
with something within kicking range with out controlling the space.

Per the given sources, the advantage of na jin is keeping the range/space, seizing the opponent, before finishing (exposing oneself). Having to clinch "will be inefficient and easy to neutralize," according to Chen Kung in The Intrinsic Energies of T’ai Chi. In the videos, Liang demonstrates controlling an opponent with one point of contact using any part of his body (e.g, chest, back, hand).

BTW, where is the real windwalker advocate of using ling kong jin? Controlling an opponent early on from a distance and less contact has its benefits. :)
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Liang DeHua — Yang Taiji: Push Hands, Apps, Seize & Fa, etc.

Postby windwalker on Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:53 am

marvin8 wrote:
BTW, where is the real windwalker advocate of using ling kong jin? Controlling an opponent early on from a distance and less contact has its benefits. :)


;) kong jin, like pung jin, lu jin and the many other types of "jin" expressed are just one facet of many.
In all of my postings I've always said whether touched or not the "process" by which it works is the same.

The demos of it in use is another matter as is the way that some feel its used publicly with fails that normally follow :P
not much to say on this.

This is a better example in a training environment although it covers a lot more then then your question.
I like this teachers explanations, and demos. Interesting enough his movements remind me of mine
using basic foot work and stepping... ;) viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25747


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ttVm3Gig1E

Having to clinch "will be inefficient and easy to neutralize," according to Chen Kung in The Intrinsic Energies of T’ai Chi. In the videos, Liang demonstrates controlling an opponent with one point of contact using any part of his body (e.g, chest, back, hand).


If this were true it should be easy to find some taiji guys doing it, no?
not saying there aren't any, just not so easy as what the teacher mentioned.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:09 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Liang DeHua — Yang Taiji: Push Hands, Apps, Seize & Fa, etc.

Postby Rhen on Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:38 pm

It is in Chiang Mai so it is not Lumpinee park. I like what Liang De Hua is doing, however he does not say who these 2 Chinese "teachers" are. He could of very well copied this information elsewhere. Many teachers name drop all the time who they learned from. It gets suspect because he says rare things like Yang Shaohao, middle frame, fast from, two Small frame forms, etc. If you cannot name your teacher, then it raises a red flag. Being from Adam Mizner's circle is another red flag IMO.

and yes, this is Thailand known for vicious Thai boxing, not Tai Chi. So if you cannot execute it on a Thai boxer then that says a lot.
Last edited by Rhen on Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Liang DeHua — Yang Taiji: Push Hands, Apps, Seize & Fa, etc.

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:49 pm

Dong family and yap Sui ting both taught in Thailand in the 60's
However I do agree with the red flag theory
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Re: Liang DeHua — Yang Taiji: Push Hands, Apps, Seize & Fa, etc.

Postby nicklinjm on Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:20 pm

@Rhen, just because he has not named his teachers publicly does not immediately mean that his shit is fake. A lot of Chinese teachers (esp. the more traditional ones) are very low key, and do not want the extra attention.

Also, he is not from Mizner's circle - Mizner is the one who (allegedly) learned from him.

Have you actually watched the usage part of the interview? Several of the things he says and demonstrates (usage of na jin, the 5 fists of taiji, in particular his excellent ideas about usage of pie shen chui) I have not seen from any YCF people, lends credence to the idea that he has learned one of the older versions of Yang style as well. Whether it is YSH is almost impossible to prove.
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Re: Liang DeHua — Yang Taiji: Push Hands, Apps, Seize & Fa, etc.

Postby Ozguorui on Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:44 am

YSH ....... the perfect mysterious lineage.
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Re: Liang DeHua — Yang Taiji: Push Hands, Apps, Seize & Fa, etc.

Postby Rhen on Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:48 am

nicklinjm wrote:@Rhen, just because he has not named his teachers publicly does not immediately mean that his shit is fake. A lot of Chinese teachers (esp. the more traditional ones) are very low key, and do not want the extra attention.

Also, he is not from Mizner's circle - Mizner is the one who (allegedly) learned from him.

Have you actually watched the usage part of the interview? Several of the things he says and demonstrates (usage of na jin, the 5 fists of taiji, in particular his excellent ideas about usage of pie shen chui) I have not seen from any YCF people, lends credence to the idea that he has learned one of the older versions of Yang style as well. Whether it is YSH is almost impossible to prove.


Did not say his shit is fake, I said it raises a red flag. Yeah and Adam plays off his Yang Shaohou stuff off Liang who doesn't say where he got it. So they are both suspect. Yes I watched the video, and the 5 fists of Yang is nothing new. There is a society in Beijing where that is all they do and it has been written about before. In particular the branch from Xu Yusheng that they call it the "5 Hammer fists" of Yang. These is an article somewhere a Google search may find. I'll try to look for it.
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Re: Liang DeHua — Yang Taiji: Push Hands, Apps, Seize & Fa, etc.

Postby Bhassler on Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:01 am

windwalker wrote:Image


it might be better to understand whats wrong with the illustration.


Back in the old days, when books were a thing, it was common to show applications in publications using this expanded range with the idea that it made it possible to actually see what was being done. Sometimes they made note that the actual usage was done at closer range, but most times not. Maybe that's relevant to the photo above, maybe not-- I have no idea.
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