Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳

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Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳

Postby Wanderingdragon on Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:09 pm

Understanding Yiquan realizes, contrary to what some would say, that it would s actually a step beyond basic internal principal. It is a higher level " you move the move first " general tai chi/internal principal. "No matter you touch me, I shake your core ", yiquan principal, it means no matter where you touch me, and it will be me hitting you. This is what trianing yiquan method seeks to teach and the skill proponents with true understanding seek to embody. In the OP the player only has the pose, there is know connection, there is know understanding of the footwork, there is know use of the body and in one piece, and as has been noted there is no action only reaction.
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Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳

Postby everything on Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:28 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:Understanding Yiquan realizes, contrary to what some would say, that it would s actually a step beyond basic internal principal. It is a higher level " you move the move first " general tai chi/internal principal. "No matter you touch me, I shake your core ", yiquan principal, it means no matter where you touch me, and it will be me hitting you. This is what trianing yiquan method seeks to teach and the skill proponents with true understanding seek to embody. In the OP the player only has the pose, there is know connection, there is know understanding of the footwork, there is know use of the body and in one piece, and as has been noted there is no action only reaction.


this is essentially just saying that "yiquan" person is the better fighter. it'd be easier to replace "yiquan" in your descriptions with "fedor" or "jon jones" or "floyd mayweather, jr" because that is what it says. "no matter where you touch me, and it will be me hitting you" describes mayweather, jr. the most. "I shake your core" describes Fedor.

that's all fine and good if Wang Xiangzhai was the old-time equivalent of those guys, but how does everyone else get to be a Wang, a Jordan, a Mayweather, Jr? Seek what they sought, do as they did, or listen to what they say after they figured it all out? If yiquan training methods are a shorter route to understanding, I think everyone on this board wants to do that instead of whatever it is we all do. When Wang says he went around the land and "tested" himself against the top people, what does that mean? If stories and legends are to be believed, whenever he did these "tests" he was the winner of these bouts/matches/sparring.
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Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳

Postby Wanderingdragon on Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:00 pm

Oops , the first two words, I think you skipped " understanding yiquan ", I think that's where you missed the point.
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Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳

Postby marvin8 on Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:03 pm

everything wrote:This fascination with "it's old" and somehow better is too often taken to the absurd. We see this in sports all the time. Who is the GOAT? Is it Jordan (yes)? Is it LeBron James? Is it Pele? Maradona? Messi?

Regarding "old," "better" and training, Zhao Daoxin, a student of Wang Xingzhai, did an interview in the 1980s. (It's been posted here before.) Zhao attended the 1930 National Martial Arts Competition in Hangzhou and won the championship. Zhao was one of Wang's best students and it was Wang who gave him the name, "Daoxin."

Excerpts from AN INTERVIEW WITH ZHAO DAOXING by Phillip Starr, https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? ... 2678473183:
Zhao Daoxin wrote:. . . Even more challenging was fighting with other Chinese at that time. No foreigners signed up for the leitei tournaments in Hangzhou or Shanghai. The people from traditional styles, even if they were monks or great masters who were famous, either got hurt or were too afraid to fight. The winners, although they were supposed to represent their traditional systems, used completely different methods of training for these fights.

. . . And there is a lack of harmony between form and intention. Everyone talks about form and intention being important but actually, they tend to go towards one extreme or the other. There is also a lack of harmony between fighting exercises and methods (tactics).

People like to compare xingyiquan to western boxing but they're also afraid of doing so. They want this Chinese "thing" to be pure. So, when there is even a small similarity they prefer to get rid of it. I think, as far as training methods and competition goes, that xingyiquan should learn from boxing.

. . . Yi-qi-li and jing-qi-shen (intention, qi, and strength, and the concept of sexual essence turning to qi and then turning to spirit- this is an old Daoist idea)...those concepts, as related to internal training, are difficult to express in normal language. We could say that it is about using self-suggestion to induce feelings of comfort and strength. Nowadays there are new ideas that are at least as effective as these old ones, and they are more efficient for practical use.


Even if one is playing defense, one’s goal should be to control the opponent (get them out of position/balance) from the beginning, preferably without the opponent realizing it (deception). This can be done in various ways: distance control, angles, changing directions, feinting, lead hand dominance, hand fighting, low leg kicks, etc. Then finish, as Michael Jordan instructs in the video.

Wanderingdragon wrote:Understanding Yiquan realizes, contrary to what some would say, that it would s actually a step beyond basic internal principal. It is a higher level " you move the move first " general tai chi/internal principal. "No matter you touch me, I shake your core ", yiquan principal, it means no matter where you touch me, and it will be me hitting you. . . .

However, "shake your core " requires contact in contact range. Controlling the opponent should start before contact is made (e.g., lure), as Michael Jordan shows in the video. In the various IMA vs External videos, the IMA seem to have problems with flailing their arms and not having enough contact time.

@ :00,
Ian Sinclair wrote:One of the common misconceptions about Tai Chi fighting strategy is that it is indirect. That it is yielding, passive, defensive strategy. The strategy of Tai Chi is not passive. It is the aggressive search for balance and victory. . . .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3y8tLH0M_M

How to Fight a Kicker with Punches. Explanation starts @ 2:21.

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Published on Jun 1, 2016

In martial arts and self defence, you're going to be facing different styles. One of the main styles is a kicker, and there are many ways for punches to counter kicks! In this video, along with technical instruction, you get to see some real examples of punches vs. kicking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrIecra-kNM
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Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳

Postby Wanderingdragon on Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:09 pm

"there is no connection, there is no understanding of the footwork, there is no use of the body in one piece. "

" understanding yiquan " is really important, think of it in old master Wang's terms. "Fight science".
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Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳

Postby marvin8 on Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:01 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:"there is no connection, there is no understanding of the footwork, there is no use of the body in one piece. "

Where is this written? What does this mean to you?

The Sanda player listened/"understood"/timed the Yiquan player's "footwork"/switching stances and knocked him down without having to wait for connection. The Yiquan player's waiting passively for connection contributed to his knockdown, as others have already mentioned.

Michael Jordan demonstrated "understanding"/listening to the opponent's stance/"footwork "(substantial/insubstantial), take the opponent out of position and finish, without any contact.
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Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳

Postby Wanderingdragon on Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:14 pm

I wrote that a few entries above, it is essentially what the Jordan clip touches on. IMO, there is no yiquan being played, the player has a very low understanding of, as you pointed out, basic fighting principals and almost zero understanding of yiquan method.
Last edited by Wanderingdragon on Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳

Postby marvin8 on Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:21 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:I wrote that a few entries above, it is essentially what the Jordan clip touches on. IMO, there is no yiquan being played, the player has a very low understanding of, as you pointed out, basic fighting principals and almost zero understanding of yiquan method.

Sorry, I misunderstood. Now, I understand the statement to be about the qualities of the inexperienced Yiquan player.
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Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳

Postby Trick on Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:12 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:If you understand yiquan you know that it is only A strike. Defense and offense are non existant

It's this kind of talk that puts a fog of the almost supernatural in some if not many practitioners of IMA heads. The guy in the vid seem to (have) been in that fog, but hopefully woke up and was lucky to get an relatively easy wake up.
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Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳

Postby Trick on Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:25 pm

everything wrote:[
When Wang says he went around the land and "tested" himself against the top people, what does that mean? If stories and legends are to be believed, whenever he did these "tests" he was the winner of these bouts/matches/sparring.

Not really comparing the YQ guy in the vid to MrWang(but maybe could be) maybe the guy in the vid is just in the beginning of a "quest" of testing himself and will eventually get that great achievement of MrWang.
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Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳

Postby Wanderingdragon on Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:52 pm

[quote="Trick"][quote="Wanderingdragon"]If you understand yiquan you know that it is only A strike. Defense and offense are non existant[/quote]
It's this kind of talk that puts a fog of the almost supernatural in some if not many practitioners of IMA heads. The guy in the vid seem to (have) been in that fog, but hopefully woke up and was lucky to get an relatively easy wake up.[/quote]
And

Really not foggy, it's just understanding what the idea of yiquan is. Though I get what you're saying and feel that way about much of the yiquan instruction today, it's why I key on understanding. Understanding anything removes the mystery and allows practical knowledge which leads to applicable skill. Unfortunately many have not come to a place in which they fully understand internal principal and basic fighting skills, yet they would teach yiquan method.
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Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳

Postby Bao on Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:06 pm

marvin8 wrote:@ :00,
Ian Sinclair wrote:One of the common misconceptions about Tai Chi fighting strategy is that it is indirect. That it is yielding, passive, defensive strategy. The strategy of Tai Chi is not passive. It is the aggressive search for balance and victory. . . .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3y8tLH0M_M


Yeah, everyone misunderstand Tai Chi fighting, he says, so he shows how to do if someone would come and push with his both hands against your arm, and what to do if someone lean against your body. ::)

.... It would be very useful against the sanda guy in the OP. ::)
Last edited by Bao on Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳

Postby marvin8 on Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:59 pm

Bao wrote:
marvin8 wrote:@ :00,
Ian Sinclair wrote:One of the common misconceptions about Tai Chi fighting strategy is that it is indirect. That it is yielding, passive, defensive strategy. The strategy of Tai Chi is not passive. It is the aggressive search for balance and victory. . . .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3y8tLH0M_M


Yeah, everyone misunderstand Tai Chi fighting, he says, so he shows how to do if someone would come and push with his both hands against your arm, and what to do if someone lean against your body. ::)

.... It would be very useful against the sanda guy in the OP. ::)

Ian did not say "everyone." He said it's a "common misconception." Meaning some people understand that Tai Chi is not passive.

Enticing (luring) an opponent to make contact with your arm is one method of searching for control, rather than being passive. The Yiquan player could have been more aggressive by feinting a move (not fully committed), seize the Sanda player out of position, then finish.

Michael Jordan instructs not to shoot the basketball, first. Because, the opponent can block/counter one's shot. Instead, Michael says to jab step (feint), get the opponent out of position and change directions, before committing to finishing/shooting the basketball.

These concepts are consistent with Tai Chi fighting strategy.
Last edited by marvin8 on Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳

Postby windwalker on Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:09 am

marvin8 wrote:Enticing (luring) an opponent to make contact with your arm is one method of searching for control, rather than being passive. The Yiquan player could have been more aggressive by feinting a move (not fully committed), seize the Sanda player out of position, then finish.

Michael Jordan instructs not to shoot the basketball, first. Because, the opponent can block/counter one's shot. Instead, Michael says to jab step (feint), get the opponent out of position and change directions, before committing to finishing/shooting the basketball.

These concepts are consistent with Tai Chi fighting strategy.


I believe there are some Yiquan players here it would be interesting reading their thoughts on the clip.

Peter Ralston outlines a good approach based on sound assumptions.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjrKxXVBbmA

He also talks about taiji, wing chun, other arts ect and address some of things that cause them to fail.
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Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳

Postby marvin8 on Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:46 am

windwalker wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Enticing (luring) an opponent to make contact with your arm is one method of searching for control, rather than being passive. The Yiquan player could have been more aggressive by feinting a move (not fully committed), seize the Sanda player out of position, then finish.

Michael Jordan instructs not to shoot the basketball, first. Because, the opponent can block/counter one's shot. Instead, Michael says to jab step (feint), get the opponent out of position and change directions, before committing to finishing/shooting the basketball.

These concepts are consistent with Tai Chi fighting strategy.


I believe there are some Yiquan players here it would be interesting reading their thoughts on the clip.

Peter Ralston outlines a good approach based on sound assumptions.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjrKxXVBbmA

He also talks about taiji, wing chun, other arts ect and address some of things that cause them to fail.

Not necessarily a comment on the clip, itself. However, Peter Ralston demonstrates the idea of controlling the opponent instead of being passive, which is what I've been posting. Elite fighters are taught to not follow (within this context) the opponent, but take control and "cut off the ring." If you follow an opponent, you might be following a feint. However if you lead the opponent, you are better prepared for his reactions:
marvin8 wrote:Even if one is playing defense, one’s goal should be to control the opponent (get them out of position/balance) from the beginning, preferably without the opponent realizing it (deception). This can be done in various ways: distance control, angles, changing directions, feinting, lead hand dominance, hand fighting, low leg kicks, etc. Then finish, as Michael Jordan instructs in the video.

Supporting my statements @ 8:17,
Peter Ralson wrote:On the other hand in Chen Hsin, we rarely do that. Most of the time we lead or get out of the way. Now, take a look at the difference. If I am leading, yes, yes, yes, yes. In the whole process, he is happy, happy, happy, happy. But the other way, unhappy, unhappy, unhappy, unhappy. You got to change. I had to keep dealing with it over and over again without knowing what it is I am going to have to deal with. Here I know what I am dealing with. One of the reasons I know is I am leading him. I am helping him. You see the difference?


Excerpt from http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/TJ_Jin/TJ_Jin3.html:
Zhang Yun wrote:4. Using jin in pushing hands and fighting

One common mistake for many people is that they try to use fa jin too directly. They just want to use their jin to beat their opponents as hard as possible. But in real Taiji Quan skill, throwing jin should never be used alone.
The complete process consists of five steps:
1. Ting – listen: feel or detect what the opponent want to do,
2. Hua – melt or dissolve: neutralize the attacking force,
3. Yin – lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go
where you want him to go,
4. Nia - hold or control: get the opponent under your control (usually means keep him off-balanced), and
5. Fa - release a throwing force: attack.

Here the first four skills are nei jin skills, while the last one, fa, can be either nei jin or wai jin. In order to be true Taiji skill, the first four steps must be present.
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