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Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:57 pm
by I-mon
I feel so fresh and invigorated now, thanks Ian!
Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:54 pm
by nicklinjm
This video has been doing the rounds on the Chinese internet the last week or so. I am not an Yiquan / Dacheng guy, but have met some decent people from various lines (Yao, Yang Shaogeng, Wang Xuanjie, etc).
I would say the guy in the video obviously has no actual fighting experience, no clue about distancing, and in all probability has never actually trained the fighting part of the Dachengquan curriculum, in no way could he even be said to represent how Dachengquan would actually fight. Think there is some video of some Yiquan / Dachengquan people sparring in Shandong (?) which is much more representative of how they would fight, will try and find it.
Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:14 pm
by everything
I couldn't bring myself to watch the video after reading everyone's comments.
Appreciate the pad video, though, thanks.
Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳
Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:03 am
by C.J.W.
AFAIK, most Dacheng (Yiquan) people nowadays focus on their own brand of PH as opposed to free-fighting.
There's actually plenty of video footage of Yiquan vs. Muy Thai/Sanda from China going back to the early 2000s, but in all the matches I've seen, you can't really tell who's using Yiquan and who's doing Sanda.
Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳
Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:50 pm
by windwalker
C.J.W. wrote:AFAIK, most Dacheng (Yiquan) people nowadays focus on their own brand of PH as opposed to free-fighting.
Interesting in that it looks like the same type of tactics being used with the same results.
Could it be a case of wrong assumptions being trained for?
That one would have enough time to naturalize the contact point thus seek to establish it first not understanding the distance or timing needed to do this.
Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳
Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:35 pm
by Trick
C.J.W. wrote:AFAIK, most Dacheng (Yiquan) people nowadays focus on their own brand of PH as opposed to free-fighting.
There's actually plenty of video footage of Yiquan vs. Muy Thai/Sanda from China going back to the early 2000s, but in all the matches I've seen, you can't really tell who's using Yiquan and who's doing Sanda.
In the very early 90's a well know YQ teacher from China held a couple of seminars in Europe. My back then teacher was at those seminars, he said that some guy/guys with kickboxing background wanted to "test" that teacher, my teacher said that the man from China handled the situation very well but failed somewhat on "weaker condition" probably because he was a heavy smoker my teacher said. As I understand many of that generation of YQ practitioners/teachers where tough guys who where used to fighting even before they began with martial arts.
Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:57 am
by Wanderingdragon
Yiquan is a system of fighting that is the next level, a higher development of skills, principles, and concepts that is only understood once foundational, and functional skills and basics are mastered. IMO, yiquan is an achievement as in Da'chengquan, ability to fight is the result of such achievement. There is no technique in yiquan, only movement, as there is no thought to reach for a glass on a shelf, there is no thought to stop a strike by striking, there is only the mind to do what is necessary to do so.
Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:09 am
by Bill
Thoughtless boxing, imo.
Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:20 am
by everything
Wanderingdragon wrote:Yiquan is a system of fighting that is the next level, a higher development of skills, principles, and concepts that is only understood once foundational, and functional skills and basics are mastered. IMO, yiquan is an achievement as in Da'chengquan, ability to fight is the result of such achievement. There is no technique in yiquan, only movement, as there is no thought to reach for a glass on a shelf, there is no thought to stop a strike by striking, there is only the mind to do what is necessary to do so.
this is like saying "football is a simple game, but to play simple football is the hardest thing."
you can't get to that philosophical ideal unless you were already a player/fighter/whatever.
another great Cruyff quote is "before I make a mistake, I don't make that mistake."
again you can't get to that ideal unless you have a ton of experience.
Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:24 am
by everything
What is speed? The sports press often confuses speed with insight. See, if I start running slightly earlier than someone else, I seem faster.
10. There’s only one moment in which you can arrive in time. If you’re not there, you’re either too early or too late.
Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:12 pm
by marvin8
everything wrote:
Wanderingdragon wrote:Yiquan is a system of fighting that is the next level, a higher development of skills, principles, and concepts that is only understood once foundational, and functional skills and basics are mastered. IMO, yiquan is an achievement as in Da'chengquan, ability to fight is the result of such achievement. There is no technique in yiquan, only movement, as there is no thought to reach for a glass on a shelf, there is no thought to stop a strike by striking, there is only the mind to do what is necessary to do so.
this is like saying "football is a simple game, but to play simple football is the hardest thing."
you can't get to that philosophical ideal unless you were already a player/fighter/whatever.
another great Cruyff quote is "before I make a mistake, I don't make that mistake."
again you can't get to that ideal unless you have a ton of experience.
However in "football" (and basketball, MMA, Boxing, etc.), there are strategies and tactics that are taught, along with techniques and conditioning. Elite players do not rely on just going blank and overcoming their opponent. Strategy, tactics, and techniques are drilled and practiced. For example:
wushutiger wrote:@ 8:45 "In fact, the yin and yang theory you could apply to any sport. You could apply it to basketball. It’s about the theory of opposites. The theory of conversion from one extreme to the other and how they work together and interchange. It’s not a metaphysical, magical, religious theory. It’s just a way to explain the theory, which exists in physics."
@ 18:01 Magical abilities — "A lot of these mystical and magical theories are quite modern. If you look at chuan pu or historical records, they never really talk about magical abilities. . . . The more you get into training even if it’s through regular sparring with classmates; the more honest it keeps you. Because, there’s no place for magic and illusions. Either it works when you’re doing it or it doesn’t work. Either you have the skill to defend yourself and apply your art or you’re getting smacked in the face quite often by your classmates. It keeps you honest."
everything wrote:What is speed? The sports press often confuses speed with insight. See, if I start running slightly earlier than someone else, I seem faster.
10. There’s only one moment in which you can arrive in time. If you’re not there, you’re either too early or too late.
This might be considered timing.
Excerpt from Tai Chi Chuan Martial Power: Advanced Yang Style:
Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming wrote:The classics say: “The opponent does not move, I do not move; the opponent moves slightly, I move first.” We can use an example to explain this. When a person is about to step through a door, and has lifted his foot and started to move forward, if the door is suddenly shut, the person will usually be bounced backward. If the timing is right, you do not need much energy to do this.
@ -1:04 of the OP video, the Sanda player times the switching of stance/lead leg of the Yiquan player. The Yiquan player walks into, in range in a bad position (without root), a left kick to the face.
The Yiquan player stays outside of punching range and in kicking range without kicking. The Yiquan player should have been either outside of kicking range or inside the punching range to be effective, if he was only going to use his hands.
Ironically, the Sanda player is following closer to IMA principles, than the Yiquan player.
Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:01 am
by Wanderingdragon
As Michael Jordan explains, as I have explained, there is no yiquan without basic, foundational skills. These skill are developed with diligent committed practice of the simplicities. Once you command your art, you are free to do what you please. Picasso, Coltrane, Jordan, Wang Xiangzhai, any one of whom will laugh at you if you think you can do what they can do without having mastered the medium.
Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:30 am
by marvin8
Wanderingdragon wrote:As Michael Jordan explains, as I have explained, there is no yiquan without basic, foundational skills. These skill are developed with diligent committed practice of the simplicities. Once you command your art, you are free to do what you please. Picasso, Coltrane, Jordan, Wang Xiangzhai, any one of whom will laugh at you if you think you can do what they can do without having mastered the medium.
I gathered that part of your post. However, do you believe Yiquan has "the next level, higher" fighting "principles and concepts" than MMA or other combat sports? If so, what are they?
Wanderingdragon wrote:Yiquan is a system of fighting that is the next level, a higher development of skills, principles, and concepts that is only understood once foundational, and functional skills and basics are mastered.
Wanderingdragon wrote:There is no technique in yiquan, only movement, as there is no thought to reach for a glass on a shelf, there is no thought to stop a strike by striking, there is only the mind to do what is necessary to do so.
As Michael Jordan demonstrated, a player should know their opponent's options/counters, listen to their stance/reactions (substantial/insubstantial) and get them out of position, in order to use their momentum against them.
Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:19 am
by Bao
There is no technique in yiquan, only movement, as there is no thought to reach for a glass on a shelf, there is no thought to stop a strike by striking, there is only the mind to do what is necessary to do so.
I guess this was meant as a passive aggressive insult to the Yiquan guy in the vid as you must mean that the Yiquan guy in the vid doesn't understand the most basic principle of his art?
If this is the most basic principle in Yiquan, why does the man just have his guard up while being totally passive. In the clip, from the Yiquan representative's side, there is nothing even close to "to do what is necessary to do".
Re: Sanda vs Dacheng fist (thought boxing) 散打vs大成拳
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:55 am
by Wanderingdragon
Not sure what you're saying, but I'm saying to understand and use " yiquan method ", you must first have martial arts mastery, and at the least high practical expertise. I will readily admit that I believe yiquan as developed by Wang Xiangzhai is hardly a passive skill.
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:57 pm
