Sam F.S. Chin showing applications

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Re: Sam F.S. Chin showing applications

Postby Interloper on Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:00 pm

The other thing that is happening, is that the receiver is absorbing the force of the punches to the ground, so they are "drained" of their power. The guy doing the punching is not pulling his punches, but of course this is not a combative situation - it's a teaching one.

Why does everyone seem to need to see full-on attacks to believe that they can be managed easily by someone with high-level internal skills? I have tried to land full-force punches and strikes on such individuals and not only could not get the punches in, I also got stuck-to, controlled and tied up by the person's arms and set up for a choke and lock. I also was black-and-blue bruised from hands to shoulders, though I was the one doing all the punching.

It's about the body method; the punches and strikes and timing become nothing when the "internal body" is "on" and you know how to use the planes of the arms. Go touch hands with one of these people and find out how it feels and what it does to your structure.

windwalker wrote:
Interloper wrote:In Japanese internal aikijujutsu, the same force is used for deflections of an opponent's force in attacking. (The guy throwing punches, starting at around 1:00, is a bodyguard, exec protection professional. If it looks like he is "holding back," he's not... his punches are hitting a brick wall of 6-directional force and his shoulder and upper back are taking a crapload of force back from his own punches).
.


maybe we'er looking at a different clips. Obviously he's throwing his punches with the timing and over extension so that he can feel whats going on.
At no point is he really trying to hit the teacher, If he is maybe he might consider another job field.

The point that some may be trying to make which I would concur is that what is shown never seems to work once its removed from the context in which its demoed in...none of it. Thinking that ones timing will be good enough to interact with a boxer for example wold be a mistake. With out footwork, controlling the distances, and angles one becomes a target. If the other is the same size ie a heavy weight and can move its not a good ending.

Saying this I do respect the teachers understand the demos and what some may feel they are developing.
I do not agree with the conclusions understanding that "demos" are set up to show certain aspects with in a given
context...they'er demos....which how I view them...

When you have this kind of body method, the attacks become academic.


yep, until they'er not

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-KX99T5r3A

bad way to find out.
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Re: Sam F.S. Chin showing applications

Postby Wanderingdragon on Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:53 pm

The point . is absolute
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Re: Sam F.S. Chin showing applications

Postby Bao on Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:41 pm

Interloper wrote:Why does everyone seem to need to see full-on attacks to believe that they can be managed easily by someone with high-level internal skills?


It's not about the level of commitment. I don't want to watch people running forward to the teacher to grab his arms or trying to push them away however committed they are. I want to see something that at least looks like an attack, or a type of attack that someone might use in a real situation. Spinning/push hands are for practice. For combat demonstrations it's nonsense.

The question is not about believing that "someone" with internal skill could use his skill against real attacks. The question is about a specific person, not about high level practitioners in general. Believing or not is also not an interesting question. What is interesting here is to see how a teacher would adopt certain techniques or methods in a more realistic situation.
Last edited by Bao on Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sam F.S. Chin showing applications

Postby windwalker on Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:48 am

Interloper wrote:. Go touch hands with one of these people and find out how it feels and what it does to your structure.


kind of the point, not having one or allowing one to find yours.
One has to understand what are they hitting and trying to move, otherwise as you've noted ones own force tends to get reflected back.

mmm, Some of the people I've touched hands can do what is shown and more a lot more. So much more that for the most part its not something
I talk much about anymore. I spent awhile doing my own investigating finding my own answers.

Respect the style and teachers shown. A lot of it reminds me of s-mantis although the foot work seems to be either lacking or very different.

As a strategy styles that emphasize sticking as shown in most clips tend not to do well in ring environments when put to the test.
Which is what some might be asking to see.

S-mantis has a lot of the same type of movements only its coupled with a unique foot work that tends to jam the others movements protecting them at
the range it functions in.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sam F.S. Chin showing applications

Postby Interloper on Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:22 pm

I guess more people just will have to video and post challenge matches. Most of what's on the public-access video tends to be demos and seminars or classes. I have, however, been at seminars where boxers and MMA guys have made full-on attacks and were taken apart easily. They usually don't get recorded, however.
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Re: Sam F.S. Chin showing applications

Postby Bao on Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:01 pm

Interloper wrote:I guess more people just will have to video and post challenge matches. Most of what's on the public-access video tends to be demos and seminars or classes. I have, however, been at seminars where boxers and MMA guys have made full-on attacks and were taken apart easily. They usually don't get recorded, however.


I think that you know very well that the request has absolutely nothing to do with challenge matches. What is asked for is applications from a non spinning hands/tui shou setting. This is something A LOT of IMA teachers demonstrate. So why not Sam? And indeed, there are A LOT of good examples out there on the video tubes.

Just a few examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CJp1K-ihE4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk3WipJCwHQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiVHkKV-Zrk
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Re: Sam F.S. Chin showing applications

Postby Gringorn on Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:45 am

I think I understand what you mean, Bao.
I also believe we are looking at this in two very different ways.

To me, the kind of applications shown in the videoes that you linked, are simply not that interesting anymore. Not because they are being demonstrated with a cooperative partner or anything like that.

Let me try to explain.

Sifu, Sam Chin, is very clear about teaching the basic and fundamental philosphy behind I Liq Chuan - to be in and act according to the present moment. Like I wrote in the previous post - there are no techniques as such in ILC. Sure, we have applications in our two forms, and even for the 15 basic excercises, but they are a training tool for beginner levels, basically. We try to train to be in the present moment.

In typical application videos like the three posted above, none of the players are in the present moment. You are relying on past experience (technique) and anticipating the partner's action, i.e. trying to predict the future. You are accumulating techniques and habits.

The more techniques you have, the more problematic this approach becomes. Which is one reason most CMAs don't look anything like what you actually train, once put under pressure.

As for ILC, showing an action-reaction attack-defence application goes against the core philosophy of the style, and is not a way in which we train.
You maintain your defensive sphere and you penetrate the opponents defensive sphere to attack. First, from contact, then without contact. If there is an opening, you whack. But more often, there will be a point of contact. And then you are in sticky/spinning hands territory - if only for a split second - to penetrate and whack. Or to off balance, throw or lock. And then whack.
Last edited by Gringorn on Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sam F.S. Chin showing applications

Postby Bao on Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:22 am

Gringorn wrote:I think I understand what you mean, Bao.


No you are not. And I might just well bang my head to the wall... but... :P .... :-\

No I am not a fan of fixed applications. And I have never ever said that I am interested in that or that what I wanted from the gent was fixed applications. What I tried to show is just what I said earlier: Working from a non-spinning hands situation. That's all and very simple. Simple. I mean exactly what I say. Not anything more, not anything less. Simple.

Sifu, Sam Chin, is very clear about teaching the basic and fundamental philosphy behind I Liq Chuan - to be in and act according to the present moment.


That goes for EVERY good IMA practitioner.

basically. We try to train to be in the present moment.


Yes, like every good IMA stylist.

In typical application videos like the three posted above, none of the players are in the present moment.


You are either being very unfair or maybe you are watching different vids then me. :-\ I could say that one of the clips is more technique oriented. But they all show a very good sense of timing and are indeed present in the moment.

You are relying on past experience (technique) and anticipating the partner's action, i.e. trying to predict the future. You are accumulating techniques and habits. ... As for ILC, showing an action-reaction attack-defence application goes against the core philosophy of the style, and is not a way in which we train.


I see no difference whatsoever from what Sam shows. He clearly knows what to expect from the students. Grabs and pushes against his arms. :-\ Teaching like this is teaching bad habits. If you practice always with a fixed distance and forced to work with leverage from a fixed distance, you might have a very hard time to adapt to another situation. To only work from spinning hands/Tui Shou is just too limited.

You maintain your defensive sphere and you penetrate the opponents defensive sphere to attack. First, from contact, then without contact. If there is an opening, you whack. But more often, there will be a point of contact. And then you are in sticky/spinning hands territory - if only for a split second - to penetrate and whack. Or to off balance, throw or lock. And then whack.


If someone just grabs your arms or just push them away there is nothing to defend or attack. And there is no territory to protect.
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Re: Sam F.S. Chin showing applications

Postby Yugen on Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:26 am

Bao wrote:
Interloper wrote:I guess more people just will have to video and post challenge matches. Most of what's on the public-access video tends to be demos and seminars or classes. I have, however, been at seminars where boxers and MMA guys have made full-on attacks and were taken apart easily. They usually don't get recorded, however.


I think that you know very well that the request has absolutely nothing to do with challenge matches. What is asked for is applications from a non spinning hands/tui shou setting. This is something A LOT of IMA teachers demonstrate. So why not Sam? And indeed, there are A LOT of good examples out there on the video tubes.

Just a few examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CJp1K-ihE4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk3WipJCwHQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiVHkKV-Zrk



seriously!? :o you're calling BS on Sam, but you post videos of "applications" where the attackers throws a punch and freezes in place so the "master" can then do all these dramatics blocks and counter attacks or Chin na?

Spinning hands doesn't represent fighting, but neither do the videos you posted.
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Re: Sam F.S. Chin showing applications

Postby Bao on Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:50 am

Oh my... -faint- I've never called BS om Sam Chin and I've never said that the vids represents real fighting.

Excuse me if I don't reply more on this thread. I'll just go and bang my head in the wall for a while. It responds only exactly to what I do and won't put words into my mouth...

-bolt-
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Re: Sam F.S. Chin showing applications

Postby Yugen on Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:13 am

Bao wrote:Oh my... -faint- I've never called BS om Sam Chin and I've never said that the vids represents real fighting.

Excuse me if I don't reply more on this thread. I'll just go and bang my head in the wall for a while. It responds only exactly to what I do and won't put words into my mouth...

-bolt-


Ok, so yes, my assessment of the OP question is going too harsh. You didn't call BS, my apologies.

the original question:
"Not to take anything away from Sam, but I'd really like to see him demonstrate his internal skills against someone throwing punches and kicks as opposed in "spinning hand" format."

As I understand it and trained it. I haven't been active in ILC for a bit now. Spinning hands is a training method of understanding the opponent's structure thru point of contact and your own structure, then over time you make yourself internally invisible to the opponent and are able to cause effects in the opponents structure. Spinning hands allows for training continuity in that engagement and developing the soft sticking connection. Sam's system also includes a methodology for how to attack the body.

Now when it comes to fighting Sam told me this. At first at the lower levels with less internal skills you use the methodologies of attacking the body and you basically fight like a typical kickboxer. As your internal skills progress it gets added in.

Now to the casual viewer it may appear like Muay Thai or kickboxing, but each strike you throw is actually also attacking the opponent's structure and it's very subtle shifts that create openings to strike.

So the end result isn't a flashy show like a spinning hands take down you see in the videos... but it is effective, I've had Sam do it to me. In other arts it's basically Kuzushi or balance break on contact... the better you are the more subtle it can be.

I now train Judo and BJJ actively and I use it my grip game, both attacking and thwarting.

Sam does have injuries from his fights when he was younger, so he may not be able to demonstrate application like he used to, but that doesn't mean he can't coach it.

So, now attacking structure thru a contact point is NOT EVERYTHING to a fight... application is also understanding technique. Which becomes the conundrum in my opinion when trying to apply internals in non-cooperative application. I've had another very good internal teacher only teach the internal methods... how to use it is really up to you, he doesn't teach "technique" or the "fight game". Sam's approach is similar. His focus is on teaching his understanding of internal principles and how to apply them in your body. He doesn't address "the full fight" techniques questions of "what do you do if this occurs?"

Internal teachers often say, once you know internals there's no technique to learn, which is probably true, but all those teachers when you ask them spent years training techniques and fight methods to get where they are, it's just not the focus of what they're trying to teach. The internal "Masters" who have only trained internals all their life are that Taiji guy who got his ass handed to him by an MMA guy in less than 30 seconds.

IMO a student on the path needs to know reactionary form against form technique/application first in order to eventually become formless, otherwise how do you know if you're not just BSing yourself?

my 2 cents
Last edited by Yugen on Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Sam F.S. Chin showing applications

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:24 am

I personally have known people who have trained internal their whole life
When they have needed their art in real life it has not failed
Likewise I have seen those who only trained external combat cop a hiding when it was needed
It depends on what brand of internal it is and how deeply they pursued it
Last edited by wayne hansen on Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sam F.S. Chin showing applications

Postby Gringorn on Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:57 am

Bao, no need to reply. I understand your frustration - as I feel it too. :-\
We are clearly not talking about the same thing.

Anyways, here are two videos I found of sifu showing what could be considered techniques/applications that are not in a sticky hands format.



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Re: Sam F.S. Chin showing applications

Postby Bao on Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:26 am

Very nice! I liked those clips. Thanks. 8-)
Last edited by Bao on Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sam F.S. Chin showing applications

Postby windwalker on Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:32 am


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqAlReX59yU

In the interest of the thread a montage of clips showing exponents of
the style in somewhat live environments.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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