Fajin is not a push - Liang De Hua

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Fajin is not a push - Liang De Hua

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:04 pm

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"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
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Re: Fajin is not a push - Liang De Hua

Postby Subitai on Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:02 pm

I'm just curious how many people on this board (or watching this above post) teach their students in this way?

I.e. to let an opponent with a "Stick (touch) point"... say on your wrist or forearm to allow the connection to go all the way through your body down to the floor such that you become off balance or thrown back?

============================================================================================

Also, at about 6:40...the martial man goes into asking "why you can't just change or move? ect."

Again, I'm just curious as to how many people on this board think this is true?
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Re: Fajin is not a push - Liang De Hua

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:23 pm

Not me
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Re: Fajin is not a push - Liang De Hua

Postby Trick on Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:47 pm

Subitai wrote:[u]I.e. to let an opponent with a "Stick (touch) point"... say on your wrist or forearm to allow the connection to go all the way through your body down to the floor such that you become off balance or thrown back?

Is this saying that the opponent help his advesary to get rooted and then put out of balance, or less rooted and put out of balance ??? Anyway, I can't see the vid, maybe should not comment :-X
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Re: Fajin is not a push - Liang De Hua

Postby Finny on Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:54 pm

A fantastic demonstration of 'hopping back' skill from the master on the right.
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Re: Fajin is not a push - Liang De Hua

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:06 pm

I don't have any students.

The concept as I understand it, I've seen expressed a couple different ways.

There's a stage common to all taiji training I've seen where you're learning peng and how to root and you present your peng to your partner who applies pressure directly into your root.

A good solid root is going to feel solid, pressing against it is like pressing against the floor directly. A weak root is going to feel mushy and unfocused and when you push on it in a certain direction it's going to break.

The sensation is dependant on sung and is relative, i.e. the more sung the individual is compared to the partner when the join occurs, the stronger their root and weaker their opponents.

The stronger root "gets under" or displaces(?) the weaker (Sinking the chi, sinking the center of gravity, etc.) allowing you to sever the root, i.e. apply slight pressure in the precise direction to exploit a weakness or tension in the body and manipulate it. Once the root is severed, the body is unbalanced and automatic processes dictate the reaction, specifically, they will start relying on you to keep them upright. That's seizing or Na Jin.

Essentially, the body of the art is built on becoming more sung than your opponent, thereby joining your masses smoothly when you make contact, thereby neutralizing, seizing, issuing/controlling.

In practical use we hide our own peng with lu while also using it to seek out the opponent's li to use to manipulate their body. In demoing the concept the student is giving it up directly so there's something to act on. In live situations, it works as advertised but much faster, dependant on relative (at that specific moment in time) levels of sung.

Or so they say.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fajin is not a push - Liang De Hua

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:12 pm

Yes that is the company line
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Fajin is not a push - Liang De Hua

Postby Bao on Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:20 am

I like some of the ideas behind it. Though there seems to be a gap between what is done and what is being said. He demonstrates it all with a practicing mode. When you practice, you want to isolate certain aspects to train, so your partner should help you so you can practice these certain things. In practice, the partner moves and attack in a one dimensional manner, his balance and weight should be apparent and he shouldn’t suddenly change or try to trick the practitioner. It’s all fine for practice, but if you believe that you can approach the reality outside the kwoon with the same mindset, well, maybe you need to go outside of the kwoon and see more of the world?
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Re: Fajin is not a push - Liang De Hua

Postby windwalker on Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:29 am

I have no problems with the teachers demo, although I would question his assumptions
like most demos similar to this its not shown in a setting to see how he or his students would apply it.

I would say they'er setting themselves up for a bad ending.

although this is from a posting on his face book

"I have been learning many styles of Martial Art for well over 50 years now, including Judo, Tang Soo Do, Northern Shaolin Seven Star Praying Mantis, White Crane⋯⋯, Tan Tui, Tong Bei, etc. plus three different styles of Tai Chi Chuan (Tong, Yang and Cheng) for well over 25 years just on Tai Chi Chuan alone.

When I have touched hand with Sifu Liang for the first time, I could not utilize the skill that I have acquired at all, for when he touched my hand I could not attack nor withdraw. When he touched me lightly with his thumb on my stomach , the force went inside my body. Right at that moment I then asked Sifu to accept me as his disciple.

It's been 5 years now from that moment on and I can now perform some of his marvelous techniques with remarkable results on other Tai Chi Practitioners. I highly recommend Sifu Liang as an authentic Yang Shao Hou's style true Master. 更多"
https://www.facebook.com/LiangDeHuaTaiji/



I make no comments as to the teachers skill.

Touching a hand and controlling it, and touching a fist coming towards ones face is not the same.
Getting hit in the face is a bad time to find out.

As to the OP question.

No I do not train the people I work with to react as they do.
In fact I ask them not to, they still react because they have too
There are sound physics principles that dictate the how and why of the reactions.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:48 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Fajin is not a push - Liang De Hua

Postby windwalker on Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:56 am

Bao wrote: It’s all fine for practice, but if you believe that you can approach the reality outside the kwoon with the same mindset, well, maybe you need to go outside of the kwoon and see more of the world?


agree
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fajin is not a push - Liang De Hua

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:00 am

After watching this today I went and recreated it with my student Richard
It was easy to do
I then explained to him how I did it and got him to do it to me
He found it easy to recreate
Let's see it done with no talking from a pushing or sparing format
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Fajin is not a push - Liang De Hua

Postby Wanderingdragon on Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:15 am

Learning to connect to the opponent while staying connected in your own right is the essence of pushing. As many have suggested on multiple threads once pushing is understood, one should get to work on learning sticking.
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Re: Fajin is not a push - Liang De Hua

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:13 am

windwalker wrote:
Bao wrote: It’s all fine for practice, but if you believe that you can approach the reality outside the kwoon with the same mindset, well, maybe you need to go outside of the kwoon and see more of the world?


agree


I was in a mosh pit at a Danzig concert at first avenue a few years back. I went outside for a breath of fresh air and a couple of guys came up and confronted me about being too aggressive and hurting people. Apparently they had both bounced off me and got knocked down and thought I was doing it on purpose and I hadn't even noticed. I had sung, ting, and root on autopilot, they were regular scattered muggles.

It comes down to using the correct technique in the correct circumstance precisely. Mostly in my experience it's automatic in that the body follows the intention immediately and thinking about it slows everything down and risks error. In the mosh pit my intention was to stay standing so I did and others didn't. In an altercation my intention is control the opponent. The techniques and energies arise naturally to accomplish the intention.

But you don't use just one technique for everything. If someone is coming fast and hard I believe it's an error to wait till their power fully develops and meet it with yours. If that's what you gotta do that's what you gotta do but the correct action would be to intercept and swallow or rebound the young power, I generally use a counter clockwise sweeping deflection like in play guitar or a rising forward deflection like Ward off right.

At that point, if I've managed to attach in time there should still be more power coming from them. At that point the uprooting happens and when their power arrives it bounces off me and sticks to them along with whatever else I put on it. So when it works right they push themselves back and off balance and I help. In my practical use play guitar and raise hands shapes are bread and butter. A right hand comes in, is deflected to my right, I capture the wrist and pull a little, maybe, put the other hand on the shoulder and I've got their back and complete control to escort them wherever I want through those two points. I can detect and dissolve any sort of movement immediately.

Yeah, Connor MacGregor could probably counter it, so I'm avoiding all fights with him until further notice.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
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Re: Fajin is not a push - Liang De Hua

Postby kenneth fish on Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:32 am

Fajin is not a push - and what Mr. Liang is demonstrating is not fajin.
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
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Re: Fajin is not a push - Liang De Hua

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:41 am

Could you elaborate?

In the context of Yang family taijiquan as I understand it, Fa means release, so releasing any jin is fa Jin, according to the way Yang family Masters within the tradition use the term. Ideally they want to release as little as possible for as great an effect as possible by getting control before issuing.

So long power is fajin, short power fajin, cold power fajin, etc.

Some other contexts appear to me to only consider one particular type of Jin being released as actual fajin, but from where Liang is coming from fa is just what follows na and hua
Last edited by oragami_itto on Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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