foot work

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Re: foot work

Postby cloudz on Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:59 am

marvin8 wrote:. A good long range fighter does not need short range skills to beat a short range fighter, if he/she is good enough.

However, a short range fighter needs some long range skills to bridge the gap, against a "good" long range fighter (e.g., kicks, knees, footwork, etc.)

This bears out in MMA.



I have to say something about this post..

The bold bit I have to disagree with you. being "good enough" is firstly only relatable to one opponent at a time. Sooner or later the short ass opponent is going to be good enough to get you to fight at close range. Saying anyone is good enough to "not need" this or that just doesn't hold up.. Even if it's just the defensive/ nuetralising side that is most utilized. And example might be Holly Holm vs Roussey - she was good enough at neutralising Roussey at the short range so therefore she could keep it standing and use her better striking, I think it's also fair to say she had the better reach - not that that was particularly decisive in that encounter.

Then you talk about "long range skills". I think you'll find it comes down to a few factors not necessarily tied to long range fighting skills specifically. What "long range skills" did Mike Tyson have ?

He could close the distance very well whilst using defensive covering and body/ head movement. He didn't even need any particulalry fancy footwork to enter.

I think evasive skills combined with defensive skills and "closing" or "entering" strategy & tactics are what's needed - which the evasion and defense would be part of. Nothing really to do with long range fighting/ fighting at long range specifically - though evasion and defense apply equally through the ranges. So whilst I wouldn't argue about a short arse or "short range fighter" needing some long range knowledge/ tactics or whatever - see first point above. Long range skills are in my opinion talking about skills for fighting in and within that range and distance - a different beast to what's needed to bridge the gap as you put it for a short ass/ short range guy. Evasion can apply at any range, but combining with entry or through the ranges is probably an art in of itself - best epitomised in my experience of combat sport, by Mike Tyson. I'm sure there's others, but he's the best example who's work I'm familiar with.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:29 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: foot work

Postby marvin8 on Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:29 am

cloudz wrote:
marvin8 wrote:. A good long range fighter does not need short range skills to beat a short range fighter, if he/she is good enough.

However, a short range fighter needs some long range skills to bridge the gap, against a "good" long range fighter (e.g., kicks, knees, footwork, etc.)

This bears out in MMA.



I have to say something about this post..

The bold bit I have to disagree with you. being "good enough" is firstly only relatable to one opponent at a time. Sooner or later the short ass opponent is going to be good enough to get you to fight at close range. Saying anyone is good enough to "not need" this or that in an mma context is as dumb as anything I've heard. Even if it's just on the defensive/ nuetralising side that most used. And example might be Holly Holm vs Roussey - she was good enough at neutralising Roussey at the short range so therefore she could keep it standing and use her better striking, I think it's also fair to say she had the better reach - not that that was particularly decisive in that encounter.

I was directly responding to C.J.W.'s comment and agreeing in part with middleway, which you left out, along with the Tai Chi quote that one should know their opponent:
marvin8 wrote:
middleway wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:The way I see it, it's very simple: A good long-range fighter can take out a short-range fighter before he has a chance to close the distance, while a good short-range fighter/grappler can close the distance on a long-range fighter and take him out first.

Neither fighting style is inherently superior to the other; it's about who's better at applying his chosen style, that's all.


Agreed .. to a point! However, and objective analysis of the availble techniuques and tactics in fighting would give us some things that work 'more' and some things that work 'less'.

The opponent does not know me; I alone know him. A good outside fighter will not box with a boxer nor grapple with a grappler. A good long range fighter does not need short range skills to beat a short range fighter, if he/she is good enough.

However, a short range fighter needs some long range skills to bridge the gap, against a "good" long range fighter (e.g., kicks, knees, footwork, etc.)

This bears out in MMA.

I agee with both you and C.J.W. that the skills of the individual fighter has a part in determining the outcome of a fight. Anything can happen.

However, I was speaking more of the strategy, than individual fighters. Michael Jordan teaches to jab step (feint, seize opponent), first. He may get blocked. However, it does not take away from the fact that one should have a strategy. One should feint an opponent in front of him, until the opponent is seized/out of position. As long as the player can seize the opponent by definition he will not get blocked or countered. This is playing more defensively responsible (yin/yang). This happens to be similar to the Tai Chi strategy. One is better prepared using intent, strategy and principles, when defending themselves.

I tried explaining further in a subsequent post:
marvin8 wrote:I wasn't advocating any long-arm style. However strategy wise by definition, a good outside fighter should beat a short range fighter by controlling distance, listening, luring, seizing the opponent, then finishing. By definition, once the opponent is seized he is not capable of attacking. This could be done without entering the short range. As Liang De Hua says, you don't want to be trading punches. :)

As Tai Chi strategy says, these steps should be in the process:
Zhang Yun wrote:One common mistake for many people is that they try to use fa jin too directly. They just want to use their jin to beat their opponents as hard as possible. But in real Taiji Quan skill, throwing jin should never be used alone.
The complete process consists of five steps:
1. Ting – listen: feel or detect what the opponent want to do,
2. Hua – melt or dissolve: neutralize the attacking force,
3. Yin – lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go where you want him to go,
4. Nia - hold or control: get the opponent under your control (usually means keep him off-balanced), and
5. Fa - release a throwing force: attack.
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Re: foot work

Postby shawnsegler on Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:58 am

I didn't know this until recently, but Lama also utilizes seven star stepping concepts like we use in Gao Bagua.

I've always like what I've seen of Lama/Pak Hok/Hop Gar, and I enjoy the videos Sifu Ross puts out.

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Re: foot work

Postby Teazer on Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:30 am

windwalker wrote:You do understand that the unique horse of hop gar, is designed not to have a leading leg that can be grabbed in such a way.


Then they are open for shooting to a body lock or double leg
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Re: foot work

Postby marvin8 on Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:14 am

shawnsegler wrote:I didn't know this until recently, but Lama also utilizes seven star stepping concepts like we use in Gao Bagua.

I've always like what I've seen of Lama/Pak Hok/Hop Gar, and I enjoy the videos Sifu Ross puts out.

S

Here's a recent video about Lama Pai footwork, which doesn't mention anything about circular footwork.

David Ross
Published on Aug 13, 2017:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlYVnJGhNPg
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Re: foot work

Postby windwalker on Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:13 am

marvin8 wrote:
shawnsegler wrote:I didn't know this until recently, but Lama also utilizes seven star stepping concepts like we use in Gao Bagua.

I've always like what I've seen of Lama/Pak Hok/Hop Gar, and I enjoy the videos Sifu Ross puts out.

S

Here's a recent video about Lama Pai footwork, which doesn't mention anything about circular footwork.


I am kind of surprised at the amount of materiel he's putting out. There are aspects he doesn't address directly, "circular foot work"
as well as the plum flower stepping and type of training for the stepping on stumps in the old days. With my teacher we used small
cement post used for the stumps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N1_GiNA98g

It was/is an interesting style, one that continues to evolve adapting to the ring today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3xO5RgcMIU

Ron Dongs, class student of Gorge Longs working on some sparring
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Re: foot work

Postby Wanderingdragon on Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:13 am

I have heard many of my friends who study bagua mention how easily lama stepping transitions to bagua. For my money Tibetan lama is a gateway art, the teacher I studied with often said lama was good for long distance, Xing I for medium and entering and LHPF infighting and control. He would also say lama was best for street fighting, a savage art to be used against savages. Personally Ive found this to be true, it really keeps you off the ground and finishes quickly, sometimes immediately. My favorite discription he used was " hit something, break something ", but I digress, the footwork keeps you outside and at the same time in close, quite a devious art, again much like bagua.
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Re: foot work

Postby marvin8 on Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:25 am

windwalker wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
shawnsegler wrote:I didn't know this until recently, but Lama also utilizes seven star stepping concepts like we use in Gao Bagua.

I've always like what I've seen of Lama/Pak Hok/Hop Gar, and I enjoy the videos Sifu Ross puts out.

S

Here's a recent video about Lama Pai footwork, which doesn't mention anything about circular footwork.


I am kind of surprised at the amount of materiel he's putting out. There are aspects he doesn't address directly, "circular foot work"
as well as the plum flower stepping and type of training for the stepping on stumps in the old days. With my teacher we used small
cement post used for the stumps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N1_GiNA98g

It was/is an interesting style, one that continues to evolve adapting to the ring today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3xO5RgcMIU

Ron Dongs, class student of Gorge Longs working on some sparring

But, he does "address directly, circular foot work" as an add on from Ba Gua to the original Lama Pai style here:

David Ross
Published on Jun 6, 2017:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXTtMvliB24
Last edited by marvin8 on Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: foot work

Postby windwalker on Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:51 am

Wanderingdragon wrote: " hit something, break something ", but I digress, the footwork keeps you outside and at the same time in close, quite a devious art, again much like bagua.


Used to target the arms and legs directly, before the body. Lots of time spent on conditioning them, developing whats known as cutting arm, and cutting hand.
Yes it does keep one close while allowing one to punch just outside the others punching range.

Actually, I can go on for quite a while about the footwork...maybe until you get sick of hearing about it. So why don't I limit it to the basics:

You guys all know that one way to classify gongfu styles is by the linear vs. the circular. It's a contrast between a line and a circle. Linear styles tend to move directly toward or directly back away from one's opponent. Of course there are small variations of this theme, slight movements angling off to the side. But this is only to further the drive forward.

The footwork involved here is generally simple -- e.g., side-stepping in and back, or whatever. With circular styles, the footwork can be more elaborate, opening angles of many variations. You can see this with, for instance, Baqua. As the Baqua practitioner travels around his or her circle, watch the footwork used to vary the travel.


With White Crane, it is the footwork that makes everything work. But it is the horse that makes the footwork work. So without the horse, the footwork will break down.

And the horse is something that is very difficult to just look at and do. You need a teacher to tell you, for instance, that the root of the horse travels down through the heel, not the toe. So that when you see someone lift their heel, it means their horse is broken. The problem with this is two fold. First, it means the footwork pattern avilalbe to the horse is now no longer available in the same way.

Second, it means the arm and hand techniques available to the rooted horse are no longer available. So, for instance, there are "Gorilla" techniques (probably not the best name for them...but oh well) that require a stable horse, and there are "Crane" techniques that require a fluid horse.

Each have different approaches to the hand/arm positions, and each have their own way of expressing the footwork patterns through their respective horses. So again, it is the footwork that makes the long-arm work. Without it, the style becomes just what linear stylists usually see in White Crane -- a slow, out-of-wack, horribly open and vulnerable set of movements that don't make sense. But in order to make use of the footwork patterns, you MUST have a solid horse. Without that, you can't move properly... and ALL of your other techniques will be in weak..


white crane or lama style also uses a circular style of stepping, not every practitioner gets to the point where what they do is so.

you might remember my saying that a lot of Mr. Long's students used his White Crane in the streets -- just as there were guys in our later school where were bouncers. But some of Mr. Long's students were street gang members, and a few of them had developed really interesting and unique ways of using White Crane.


some have talked about shooting in take downs ect. Kinda depends on the context and experience. As a style it is known for functionality addressing the needs of the practitioner. As with anything it depends on who is better at what they do...



Mr. Long use to say "Don't let the wind blow you." So, this guy's unique way of maneuvering your attention without telegraphing anything of value, was using his "wind" to move your attention to his benefit. It was quite an experience to spar with him. But this was another example of the ways in which White Crane could be molded to fit a particular need, to accommodate a particular set of assumptions about where you were fighting and why. It might be fine to sink down into a fancy on-guard position in some cases. In other cases, you might not want to let a potential opponent know anything bout what you are up to decide to unload on him. Those were also the kinds of things we were experimenting with.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26046&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=burning+hand&start=30

Interesting style from long ago.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: foot work

Postby windwalker on Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:57 am

marvin8 wrote:[
But, he does "address directly, circular foot work" as an add on from Ba Gua to the original Lama Pai style here:


Different teachers will have different stories about what came from what ect...My own training and experience is from Mike, who studied
under Gorge Long, and later David Chin. We used circular foot work stepping it was part of the system not an add on.

Whats your point about what the original lama style?
Do you train it, or is all your information from utube clips.
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Re: foot work

Postby marvin8 on Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:04 pm

windwalker wrote:
marvin8 wrote:[
But, he does "address directly, circular foot work" as an add on from Ba Gua to the original Lama Pai style here:


Different teachers will have different stories about what came from what ect...My own training and experience is from Mike, who studied
under Gorge Long, and later David Chin. We used circular foot work stepping it was part of the system not an add on.

Whats your point about what the original lama style?
Do you train it, or is all your information from utube clips.

It is not my point.

I am only posting David Ross' video titled, "Lama Pai using Ba Gua footwork in practical application."
Last edited by marvin8 on Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: foot work

Postby windwalker on Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:20 pm

marvin8 wrote:
I am only posting David Ross' video titled, "Lama Pai using Ba Gua footwork in practical application."


Try again you where addressing my post, which I answered.

This might answer some of your questions concerning what different teachers say or not.

Lost lineages and hybrids
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lama_(martial_art)

Lama Pai, Hop Gar and Tibetan White Crane all share these common theories.
The Eight Character True Essence: “Strike the place that has a pulse, never a place that has no pulse, and stretch the arms out while keeping the body away".[8]
Chan (ruthlessness): Chan represents the mental state that must be achieved. When attacked, there is no room for ambivalence or hesitation. The student must commit themselves to being totally ruthless. All strikes must be executed full force, and all blocking motions must destroy the opponent's limbs.

Sim (dodge, evade, avoid): Sim represents the preferred defensive method. It is considered superior to evade all attacks whilst simultaneously striking exposed vital points. This is achieved through footwork, body positioning, and jumping.

Chyuhn (to pierce, penetrate): Chyuhn represents the primary offensive goal, for all strikes to pierce and destroy vital points. It also refers to vital point striking.

Jit (to stop, intercept): Jit represents the second line of defense. Attacks that cannot be evaded must be intercepted and the attacking limb destroyed.


This was what we used to guide the development of the training.
Chan, "ruthlessness" I would later drop in favor of emptiness, different mind set with different skills and ideas at work.
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Re: foot work

Postby marvin8 on Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:42 pm

windwalker wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
I am only posting David Ross' video titled, "Lama Pai using Ba Gua footwork in practical application."


Try again you where addressing my post, which I answered.

There is no trying. I am only posting sifu David Ross' videos. Any discrepancies should be addressed to him personally.
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Re: foot work

Postby marvin8 on Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:06 am

windwalker wrote:
marvin8 wrote:I am only posting David Ross' video titled, "Lama Pai using Ba Gua footwork in practical application."


Try again you where addressing my post, which I answered.

(I am commenting on the videos themselves, which was in response to other posts.)

Okay. The title of that video is somewhat misleading. Viewing the video, it shows stepping in 8 directions. I misinterpreted it the first time. David does not cover what I would call circular footwork. But, does cover 8 directions or angles.

Here's another video titled more clearly, showing it is part of the Lama Pai system. The heading at the beginning of the video reads, How to train the system. Step 4: Stepping in 8 directions. Baat Gwa Bouh Faat.

David Ross
Published on May 31, 2017

Lion's Roar Review of basics part four baat gwa bouh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjsD6qQiWR8
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