foot work

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foot work

Postby windwalker on Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:09 pm

Lama style foot work is very important, a key component of the system that makes what is called long arm work.
Its very effective against people who just box as it allows one to be outside their range while they'er in yours.

It is also good against kicking type stylist although the timing and distancing is more critical. To be inside their kicking ranges
while out side their punching range means they can never really develop a full extension when or if they kick, and they are out of range for punching, while still in range the lama stylist.

Of course once they figure it out, they'er trying as much as possible not to be in that position ;) .

When people ask about how something "looks" for this style what is shown is pretty much the way it looks, is used and works.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdK2bA8_0qw

What I often find lacking in most clips shown is the foot work that allows it to work...
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:12 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: foot work

Postby middleway on Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:50 am

Thanks for sharing
It looks very reliant on the opponent either staying in the same range or retreating, and like it would be highly succeptable to someone entering and closing the distance. It is something i notice with all the long arm styles, enter in and they are completely negated. I think maybe this is why arts like Dai Xing Yi were so renowned, they would get extremely close and hit with the power of a long arm strike in just an inch or so.
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Re: foot work

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:15 am

middleway wrote:Thanks for sharing
It looks very reliant on the opponent either staying in the same range or retreating, and like it would be highly succeptable to someone entering and closing the distance. Not in my experience, the opponent has to move or get hit. The foot work is designed to put one position with out offering any targets that are in range of the opponent due to the "long arm" For me this worked very good against people who boxed, I would agree not to kick them


It is something i notice with all the long arm styles, enter in and they are completely negated.
Lama, dose have a short hand to supplement the long arm, and also one has to get past the long arm. It's not stationary nor fixed due to the foot work. I had a grappler friend of mine close the distance as you've suggested, I caught him on the way in but stopped my hand not wanting to brake his nose. He paused looked at me then picked me up and threw me out. In hindsight I should have just broken his nose.

I think maybe this is why arts like Dai Xing Yi were so renowned, they would get extremely close and hit with the power of a long arm strike in just an inch or so.


This to me would not be the advantage of using long arm, the advantage is the range, distancing, timing and foot work.


Of course all styles have their good and bad points.

My point in posting was that over the years people often talk about what something looks like when CMA are used. Lama Hop gar is very distinctive there is no mistaking what is being done or used or how it is used.

No trying to fit something into something else that looks like it but could be anything like for example the threads on "brush knee" its very clear.
What I teach now can best be described as a hybrid comprised of taiji and hop gar....

So far with those I know they've encouraged me with my work and development.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: foot work

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:35 am

some thoughts

We were experimenting quite a lot, especially when we broke away from the White Crane school, and started our own school (which was eventually merged into David Chin's Hop Gar umbrella). I think I saw a kind of kindred spirit in boxing where the "short hand" was concerned. And I liked the fact that we could put on gloves on, and really pummel each other without getting too messed up. I saw much of boxing's maneuvors as following the same kind of circular ideas we were doing on a more extended platform with the long-arm. I was looking at Bruce Lee's ideas about fencing and boxing, but relative to White Crane. So it there was quite a lot of experimenting we were doing by the time you came along. And Yes, you do have to look at differing "ranges" with regard to long arm/short hand moves. Kicks were effective at the most distant range. short hand is the closest.

But it seemed to me that most non long-arm styles had a kind of dead spot between those two ranges that the long-arm filled. So White Crane had three different ranges -- One for kicks, one for long-arm, one for short hand. If someone was at the longest range... then kick him. If they were at a closer range, then hit him with the long-arm, and if he was close by, use the short-hand.

And of course the footwork (always the footwork) helped to make adjustments in those ranges by not only opening up unique angles, but placing the opponent into the best range. White Crane, as I saw it, was 3 dimensional on many levels, intricate and thought provoking. Like Mr. Long use to say... "Pretty sophisticate."

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26046&p=443389&hilit=burning+hand&sid=7a7cc0a7d31f130cd540902f0c147f1c#p443389
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Re: foot work

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:42 am

I'm not sure what you are saying here windy
Is this an example of good or bad lama
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Re: foot work

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:07 am

wayne hansen wrote:I'm not sure what you are saying here windy
Is this an example of good or bad lama


nether

David Ross is a well known teacher with a stable of fighters
It seems he's elected to demo or show training on a style that is not normally shown.

The style was one of the main influences in my own path and training. Watching some of the clips brought back many memoirs
of things done long ago, although stylistically maybe due to David Chins, influence there are some small differences.

another teacher CheukTiang-Tse,, http://hopgarkungfuacademy.com/aboutus/lineage.html
in Hawaii also taught lama hop gar with a slightly different flavor.

It as a style is very distinctive with the training directly reflected in usage.

Thought it might help some see or understand where my point of view comes from concerning how something looks
and usage as intended with sound assumptions based on real world experience normally taught to those wanting or
needing to fight.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: foot work

Postby jaime_g on Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:09 am

Any decent grappler knows that if his striking opponent has good footwork he is going to take punish until he gets the set-up for the throw.
No one is too worried about that. Sure, you can end with a broken nose, with bruises, and quite piss off...but, if you achieve the throw, it's game over. Then you can return the broken nose and add a few broken bones
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Re: foot work

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:19 am

jaime_g wrote:Any decent grappler knows that if his striking opponent has good footwork he is going to take punish until he gets the set-up for the throw.
No one is too worried about that. Sure, you can end with a broken nose, with bruises, and quite piss off...but, if you achieve the throw, it's game over. Then you can return the broken nose and add a few broken bones


Don't quite get the point.

its also game over if one gets knocked out which with my "friend" I did not want to do.
It amounts to who is a better at what they do...this is true in any thing.


some thoughts on grappling


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bFqsNlK7_c

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Re: foot work

Postby middleway on Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:22 am

Not in my experience, the opponent has to move or get hit. The foot work is designed to put one position with out offering any targets that are in range of the opponent due to the "long arm" For me this worked very good against people who boxed, I would agree not to kick them


The assumption here seems to be that entering into a long arm method would be 'Dumb', but there are many ways to enter without risk of a big hit. I see nothing in the methods that would stop someone going forward, inside the rang of a long swing. the size of the arc of the strike also helps the close fighter out.

Look how a Muay Thai fighter will move to clinch if they are taking too much damage at range, i dont see the long arm methods shown as any different from that situation.

Lama, dose have a short hand to supplement the long arm, and also one has to get past the long arm. It's not stationary nor fixed due to the foot work. I had a grappler friend of mine close the distance as you've suggested, I caught him on the way in but stopped my hand not wanting to brake his nose. He paused looked at me then picked me up and threw me out. In hindsight I should have just broken his nose.


A broken nose is not a fight ender, as Jaime says. It is just a small amount of damage if you are fighting for your life. I have broken mine many times and it didnt stop the fight.

This to me would not be the advantage of using long arm, the advantage is the range, distancing, timing and foot work.


I struggle to see how these are unique advantages? All well developed martial arts and combat sports have advanced 'Range, distancing, timing and foot work'. These are common traits, so where is the advantage?

For clarity, i am simply sayinig that 'long arm' work has limited functionality, not that it is absent of functionality.

thanks.
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Re: foot work

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:32 am

middleway wrote:
For clarity, i am simply sayinig that 'long arm' work has limited functionality, not that it is absent of functionality. thanks.


My experience seems to have been very different.
It might be good to give a qualifier about what "you" have done with long arm, who you trained with ect.
Most people make the same comments in just looking at it...which is ok....

Not saying its the best only something I felt was unique and helped to form my thoughts on CMA many yrs ago.
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Re: foot work

Postby middleway on Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:37 am

My experience seems to have been very different.


But you are saying that the long work is combined with short arm work when an opponent closes, so you are essentially in agreement with me.

Footwork is essetially a part of general 'agility' in what i teach. Advanced agility is a thing to behold and can negate almost every method if it is superior.

I dont want to make this a CMA vs MMA thread, and the posting of the below is NOT for that reason, however, this footage of MMA fighter TJ Dillishaw is what i would call Advanced footwork and agility in striking and long range work, a constant flow in and out of range, angulation, position and line changes.



Catching someone with this level of agility is going to be hard regardless of the method.

thanks.
Last edited by middleway on Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: foot work

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:57 am

middleway wrote:But you are saying that the long work is combined with short arm work when an opponent closes, so you are essentially in agreement with me.
thanks.


actually I don't feel so, but really see no point in going on and on about it.

But it seemed to me that most non long-arm styles had a kind of dead spot between those two ranges that the long-arm filled. So White Crane had three different ranges -- One for kicks, one for long-arm, one for short hand. If someone was at the longest range... then kick him. If they were at a closer range, then hit him with the long-arm, and if he was close by, use the short-hand. Mike Staples


The clip you posted was good, the person quite skilled.
A little different between the skill of person then that of a "style" or method that develops it.

My point being that CMA styles developed and exploited things addressing the needs of the time.
In some cases one might question whether what was developed is still relevant and why is it still practiced.
.
I don't look at things as about MMA vs CMA,
never cared much for MMA but respect its skill sets and those who practice and compete.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGX5wYp_adA

interesting the "drop shift" is very similar to whats called "running crane"
They say its unorthodox but its a very practiced and known method among white crane, lama hop gar practitioners.
There are other stepping methods which was one of the points of the post.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: foot work

Postby C.J.W. on Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:11 am

The way I see it, it's very simple: A good long-range fighter can take out a short-range fighter before he has a chance to close the distance, while a good short-range fighter/grappler can close the distance on a long-range fighter and take him out first.

Neither fighting style is inherently superior to the other; it's about who's better at applying his chosen style, that's all.
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Re: foot work

Postby middleway on Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:56 am

he way I see it, it's very simple: A good long-range fighter can take out a short-range fighter before he has a chance to close the distance, while a good short-range fighter/grappler can close the distance on a long-range fighter and take him out first.

Neither fighting style is inherently superior to the other; it's about who's better at applying his chosen style, that's all.


Agreed .. to a point! However, and objective analysis of the availble techniuques and tactics in fighting would give us some things that work 'more' and some things that work 'less'.

I don't look at things as about MMA vs CMA,
never cared much for MMA but respect its skill sets and those who practice and compete.


Me either, i think discussions on 'skillsets' and 'attribute' are more important than those about styles, backgrounds or traditions. My comments here are about 'skillsets and attributes, not Lama hop gar specifically.

My point being that CMA styles developed and exploited things addressing the needs of the time.
In some cases one might question whether what was developed is still relevant and why is it still practiced.


Again we agree. :)

thanks for your time and information.

chris.
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Re: foot work

Postby marvin8 on Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:21 am

middleway wrote:
he way I see it, it's very simple: A good long-range fighter can take out a short-range fighter before he has a chance to close the distance, while a good short-range fighter/grappler can close the distance on a long-range fighter and take him out first.

Neither fighting style is inherently superior to the other; it's about who's better at applying his chosen style, that's all.


Agreed .. to a point! However, and objective analysis of the availble techniuques and tactics in fighting would give us some things that work 'more' and some things that work 'less'.

The opponent does not know me; I alone know him. A good outside fighter will not box with a boxer nor grapple with a grappler. A good long range fighter does not need short range skills to beat a short range fighter, if he/she is good enough.

However, a short range fighter needs some long range skills to bridge the gap, against a "good" long range fighter (e.g., kicks, knees, footwork, etc.)

This bears out in MMA.
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