Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

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Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby marvin8 on Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:50 pm

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Published on Oct 24, 2017


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JAxVNolnaU
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby everything on Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:24 pm

What does set the shoulder mean? Keep it in its most neutral configuration?
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Interloper on Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:52 pm

everything wrote:What does set the shoulder mean? Keep it in its most neutral configuration?


To create a connective structure between the scapula and the unified core of the body, and the arm, to provide structure in the arm without tensing the muscles, so that force can be transmitted from the body through the arm to the point of contact.
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Subitai on Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:51 pm

ARRRGGGGHHH! I can't believe I'm going to say this but I actually don't have a problem with what Adam is saying in this video. His information is essentially correct ::) But I do have a problem with his student allowing himself to take the Mizner dive once again for no good reason.

Anyway, he's talking about such a basic kung fu principle that it shouldn't be overlooked. BUT.....neither should it be over-glorified.

Simply put, the shoulder joint is a "Ball and Socket joint"
Image

You relax the humerus bone and let the elbow sink. This will keep your shoulder open and a good Conduit for energy transmission and less chance of injury and blah blah blah. It is super basic and taught very early at my old kwoon.

I've written about this before on this board. When I'm teaching a student to feel it correctly there will be a "DIVOT hole or indent" at the top of the shoulder. Here is an example of how to achieve it:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/ent ... rs-Relaxed

So simple... there's probably many ways that different schools teach this. One for example would be anybody that teaches 5 bows of the body principle.

2 arms and 2 legs ... literally bent like Long Bows that have been strung... the torso / Chest is hollow and relaxed (That would be the 5th) yet the dan tien is full. Here is a classic example:
Image
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:08 pm

If you practice Huangs two man exercise ,single arm drop there is no need to talk about it.
You can't do it any other way
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Steve Rowe on Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:20 am

Not sure about the basket ball analogy, IME draining the energy to the middle helps to soften the core allowing it and the spine to be manipulated in many ways to express power through the upper body.
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Rhen on Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:52 am

wayne hansen wrote:If you practice Huangs two man exercise ,single arm drop there is no need to talk about it.
You can't do it any other way


what does that look like? any video?
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby LaoDan on Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:24 am

Subitai wrote:When I'm teaching a student to feel it correctly there will be a "DIVOT hole or indent" at the top of the shoulder.
Yes! I also emphasize maintaining the “divot” at the Jian Jing (肩井 shoulder well – GB21) acupuncture point.
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Yugen on Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:46 am

Subitai wrote:ARRRGGGGHHH! I can't believe I'm going to say this but I actually don't have a problem with what Adam is saying in this video. His information is essentially correct ::) But I do have a problem with his student allowing himself to take the Mizner dive once again for no good reason.

Anyway, he's talking about such a basic kung fu principle that it shouldn't be overlooked. BUT.....neither should it be over-glorified.

Simply put, the shoulder joint is a "Ball and Socket joint"
Image

You relax the humerus bone and let the elbow sink. This will keep your shoulder open and a good Conduit for energy transmission and less chance of injury and blah blah blah. It is super basic and taught very early at my old kwoon.

I've written about this before on this board. When I'm teaching a student to feel it correctly there will be a "DIVOT hole or indent" at the top of the shoulder. Here is an example of how to achieve it:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/ent ... rs-Relaxed

So simple... there's probably many ways that different schools teach this. One for example would be anybody that teaches 5 bows of the body principle.

2 arms and 2 legs ... literally bent like Long Bows that have been strung... the torso / Chest is hollow and relaxed (That would be the 5th) yet the dan tien is full. Here is a classic example:
Image


you may be missing a subtle point Adam showed... first off to semantically disagree, you can't "relax" a bone, the muscles attached to the humerus, yes, but not the bone.
At 2:36ish if you watch carefully Adam's shoulder area appears to roll back and downward, but the deltoid area doesn't really move. That to me looks like the pull down and scapulae engagement with the torso...
I wish people would throw away the use of "Qi" .... it makes it sound magical and is better for marketing "ancient wisdom", but we we have modern ways to express all this clearly.
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:16 am

Rhen wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:If you practice Huangs two man exercise ,single arm drop there is no need to talk about it.
You can't do it any other way


what does that look like? any video?



It is done in the goat riding stance
It is the move in Ta lu where the feet. Come together and you block the hit to the face and pull down
I have seen videos of it by a few of Huangs students
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby everything on Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:14 pm

I sort of know what some of you may or may not be saying haha.
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Subitai on Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:28 pm

by Yugen on Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:46 am

you may be missing a subtle point Adam showed... first off to semantically disagree, you can't "relax" a bone, the muscles attached to the humerus, yes, but not the bone.
At 2:36ish if you watch carefully Adam's shoulder area appears to roll back and downward, but the deltoid area doesn't really move. That to me looks like the pull down and scapulae engagement with the torso...
I wish people would throw away the use of "Qi" .... it makes it sound magical and is better for marketing "ancient wisdom", but we we have modern ways to express all this clearly.


Did you even bother to read my blog post describing an example of how to do it?

When you relax your shoulder and sink the elbow down and away it pulls the humerus bone out of the socket slightly...thus creating the separation or as I like to say Divot.

If you look at the video and pause it at exactly 2:38 You'll see the DIVOT between his Deltoid and the Trapezius. As I said, what he's doing is a basic from any good CMA. It's fine and I acknowledged that it's correct...It's just nothing mind blowing.


I don't need to watch Adam do what is basic...I watched the video because Marvin8 posted it. I was curious as to why and I certainly don't need to see the student taking the Mizner dive. ::)

Btw for clarity, I personally never mentioned "Qi" in my post

But if I did want to talk about Qi movement or use...I wish people would take the time to realize that this forum literally has the words "Internal Martial Arts forum" in the Header. So NO, in my opinion speaking about Qi on this board would not be so out of place.


On Keeping the Shoulders Relaxed
October 2, 2012
Everyone in CMA says "relax the shoulder and sink the elbow"...but some don't know what to feel or how to achieve it.

Stand about arm length away from a wall and push with say one of your palms; Right palm flat against the wall for example with your fingers aligned upwards (Index finger at least shoulder height)

To train this feeling... sink your arm down and extend it slightly out of the shoulder joint. Literally feel your Humerus bone (upper arm bone) slightly pull down and away as you push on the wall. When you do this right, there will be a small divot or crater at the top of your shoulder. You could pour water into it and it would stay there. haha.

You can maintain this push for a long time if your structure is correct.

Body memory is easy to train,

"O"
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:54 pm

I don't see the guy diving for Adam
Adam has an advantage by sitting down and has the guy set up where it is easy to make him loose his centre
Adam just exploits it
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Subitai on Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:48 am

wayne hansen wrote:I don't see the guy diving for Adam
Adam has an advantage by sitting down and has the guy set up where it is easy to make him loose his centre
Adam just exploits it


Ok, 1st I don't see sitting down as an advantage...to the opposite.
1) You limit your range of motion because you cannot move or TWIST as effectively compared to standing.
2) You don't gain the power of your feet and legs issuing through the ground.
3) Have someone push on you from Various angles whilst you are seated...you'll be using both Arse cheeks in no time in an attempt to compensate. Not very efficient.

>>> Which is the reason for my feeling that the dive was unnecessary.

2nd, I used the widely known term DIVE, as in "Taking a Dive". You know like a boxer does when he loses on purpose.

NOW: It's true the student is in a bow stance and is pressing / forward...so one must assume he's issuing some sort of power towards his teacher.

ALL Adam did was put his hand on his student and feel through his structure how he's connected to the ground...that is so easy for any reputable teacher to do. As he said...his Chi is connected and he has information transfer. Again that is not difficult to do.

Ok, so mabe the guy was a total newbie at a work shop i'll give him that. But once they have any training at all in the fundamentals...any body who knows would just turn their center slightly, Relax the arms, remain standing and not FALL FORWARD.

Think about that Wayne...if you were in a forward bow stance with that classic "Press / Forward" posture and Adam connected to you with one hand:
1) He could make you Fall forward like that? Answer, only if you let him.

2) If you're a teacher, how about one of your students who has at least learned some fundamentals?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This brings me to a topic I've been hesitant to share for long time now but I might post on the main board later.
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby everything on Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:35 am

there are some very, very few of us here who have been pushed in some inexplicable way. I don't think any of us would have looked like we were diving, but surely it might look a little unusual and certainly impossible. it's not really worth talking about in an internet forum, even rsf, because the discussion goes nowhere.
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