Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby charles on Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:14 pm

oragami_itto wrote:I am the absolute worst martial artist on the internet, so I can't afford to not learn from everyone.


Ouch. From a pedagogic point of view that's near the bottom of the barrel in approach, increasing the probability that you'll improve little and slowly.

One of the ways I've observed for beginning students to make their journey slower, more difficult and less likely to succeed is to have that student watch and learn from his peers - other beginning students in the same class. It is essentially the blind-leading-the-blind approach.

The most effective way, usually, is to learn from people of established skill, ignoring the others who are flopping about trying to learn. The others, more often than not, are "noise".

Imagine a nursery school class of children learning to add two numbers. One says to the other, what do you think 1 + 1 is equal to. One fellow student says, "three". Another say, "zero". Yet another says, "11". One more says, "two". One other repeats the earlier answer of "three". Even though there is a right answer amongst the responses, it's buried by the incorrect answer. More than one person agreed the answer was three. Must be so. For the best chance of obtaining the "right" answer, go as close to the source as possible, in this situation, the teacher, not fellow students.

My thoughts and experience, anyway.
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby windwalker on Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:27 pm

Bhassler wrote:Shifting weight by pushing vs. by sinking (as an example) is not the same movement done differently, they are different movements, and the processes of each of those movements are different, with different muscle activations, alignments, and physical landmarks.

You and others may feel that the common way of using imprecise or incorrect terminology combined with imagery is good enough, and that the point of diminishing returns is extremely close as far as finding a new way of invoking and articulating movement, and that's fine. I just want to point out that there is another way, and that it's not so incredibly difficult to use clearly defined western terminology that's both clear and concrete.


Well said, adding that the what and why its different can be explained by physics, which when used in simple terms followed by demos and hands on
avoids the use of verbiage that is not very precise or understood even among many native speakers.

There are things for which terminology like "qi" "yi" ect can be used to describe things once solid foundation has been set.

In China for example I once asked about a feeling I felt from the others, one I did not seem to have...I was told "what you feel is their "yi" do not think about it, try to force or even try to do it. In time it will come and you will know it" In time through basic practice and practices I came to an understanding and usage of it that they confirmed and helped with some guidelines that helped me to develop it more.

Most of the demos that some question I've found can be explained using western terminology and duplicated providing ones level and understanding is sufficient. What ever verbiage is used it hopefully should allow the student to grasp either what to do, or whats supposed to be happening along with why.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:23 am

charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I am the absolute worst martial artist on the internet, so I can't afford to not learn from everyone.


Ouch. From a pedagogic point of view that's near the bottom of the barrel in approach, increasing the probability that you'll improve little and slowly.


Like I said I'm the worst.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Bhassler on Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:25 am

Applications can be described using basic physics, and movements can be described using basic anatomy and associated terminology. Metaphor and imagery is useful in describing the quality of a movement, but less so the movement itself.

Where stuff gets silly is when folks try to use physics to describe a movement, or imagery to describe an application, etc.

(Just distilling all my blathering down to something useful...)
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby charles on Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:40 am

oragami_itto wrote:Like I said I'm the worst.


Is that something to strive for or be proud of?

This stuff really isn't that conceptually difficult if one has a teacher capable of distilling from it the core. If one knows what one is training and why, progress in the basics should be relatively rapid.
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:58 am

Isn't that just the old Chinese game of
I'm more humble than you so even though I say I'm worse I'm really better
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:44 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Isn't that just the old Chinese game of
I'm more humble than you so even though I say I'm worse I'm really better


HA! Naw man, I'm just saying, I suck. Probably always will. Anyone on this board could probably wipe the floor with me and I'm fine with that. Everybody else probably knows more than me so I can learn from them, even when they don't. I'm not trying to prove anything to anybody, just looking for interesting discussion about my favorite subject. That's all.
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:00 pm

Sure your not chinese
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:54 pm

Only where it counts.
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Trick on Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:36 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I'm more humble than you so even though I say I'm worse I'm really better
. could that have something to do with sinking the Qi.
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:19 am

Holy shit you guys are paranoid.
You're all better than me, that's exactly what I mean. No double talk or pretension involved. I suck. Dig no deeper into the comment for there is nothing there to find
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Steve Rowe on Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:05 am

He's not the Messiah - he's just a very naughty boy!
If you see someone without a smile - give 'em one of yours...
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Aqui on Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:16 pm

Steve Rowe wrote:He's not the Messiah - he's just a very naughty boy!


Could you explain in what way he is "a very naughty boy"?

Do you mean because he is not telling the truth on how to get this skill or because he is faking (meaning hi partner is complaint) or do you mean something completely different? ???
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Trick on Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:09 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Holy shit you guys are paranoid.
You're all better than me, that's exactly what I mean. No double talk or pretension involved. I suck. Dig no deeper into the comment for there is nothing there to find

Comments where made on the lighter side. We're all best and worst in our own way 8-)
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Re: Sink the Qi, set the shoulder — Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:12 am

Right on,
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
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