the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Although close, sumo shiko =/= ' shikko' (knee walking)...

Trick wrote:

wayne hansen wrote:Is there a good example of these Shinzo exercises on YouTube

I can't see the vid posted here unless they are Chinese Tubes. So I just ask, this Shiko is it the way the Sumo guys are doing or the "knee walking" done in Aikido? The knee walking I can see could be a good exercise for the lower abdomen and hips.

Finny, I don't think you answered his question.

Trick, it's the former.

HAH! The award for the most useless post this year goes to...

Apologies.

I was just joshing. All good!

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:

wayne hansen wrote:Is there a good example of these Shinzo exercises on YouTube

Do you mean Shiko? Or do you mean "heart exercises?"

Sorry I didn't notice predictive text changed the spelling
I just wanted to see someone who does them well do them
Where do they come from,are the from sumo
I remember members of the Japanese team at the Tang Shou Tao championships in Taiwan in 1975 teaching me these
What lineage teaches these are the meant to come from earlier aiki jitsu training

The history of shiko is something that can be investigated at length - there aren't short answers to those questions. Originally from sumo. The version discussed in this thread comes from Daito ryu AJJ.

When was it adopted by ajj

The history of "aikijujutsu" is very curious itself. One of the best books written on the subject is being released in a 2nd, revised edition (this week I think) - 'Hidden in Plain Sight' by Ellis Amdur; who is a member here and can answer far better than I can.

Essentially the term Aikijujutsu is proprietary to Daito ryu - which is very much (in terms of it's history) a Bagua-esque art. It emerged in the early 1900's, being taught by a single, enigmatic man named Takeda Sokaku. He was known to be a ... unique character, hyper paranoid, exceedingly violent. He had killed a couple of labourers following the Meiji era sword ban (and was almost killed himself by all accounts) when a group of them taunted him for still wearing a sword (he was better known as a sword expert at the time). Allegedly the judge told him that the era of the sword was done, and he should learn to adapt. He began teaching his 'previously secret' style of jujutsu - which went through several name changes before settling on Daito ryu. He was also the teacher of the founder of Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba.







The story he espoused about DR being a 900 year old art is about as likely as ZSF creating TJQ... and the man he credited with teaching him is not known to have been a martial artist.. which leaves the real history and creation of the art open for examination - hence Mr Amdur's book, which the original edition did wonderfully.

Takeda was known to teach different people different things. One of his students was a large, powerful sumo practitioner - Takeda informed him that he would teach him jujutsu (ie the mechanical techniques - taolu and applications, I suppose, in CMA terms) - to other, smaller students he said he would teach 'aiki' (which has as many definitions as there are teachers of DR/Aikido/HKD - but is often thought of as 'internal' goodies - jibengong perhaps, in CMA terms). The process of teaching or acquiring 'aiki' was/is reminiscent in many was of CIMA, and shiko is one of the integral tanren exercises (AFAIK - I'm not a DR guy)

In short - no-one knows, but it may be that DR was created/compiled by Takeda from disparate teachings. His father was a well known Sumo champion, and he was known to have competed (against his father's wishes) when younger. He also studied several other Japanese MA, some of which were known for 'unusual' conditioning exercises.

Check out the book if you're really interested - it's really very well done.

wayne hansen wrote:When was it adopted by ajj

In my very limited Wikipedia research I read Takeda Sōkaku father was a ranked sumo wrestler

That doesn't answer the question
If it was part of Daito Ryu from the start why wasn't in aikido or hapkido

That's a different question entirely. As I noted, the (for all intents and purposes) founder of DR taught different people differently. Kinda like asking why not all Bagua lineages have straight line or 'animal' sets..

There is however enough information available, and enough lines of DR (seem to) consider shiko integral enough that there is no doubt it comes 'from the source' so to speak.

The founder of Aikido was known to have altered both the physical manifestation of the techniques he was taught, as well as not necessarily teaching 'aiki' to his students.. as his teacher had taught him to, and done himself ('teach only one or two the real goods..'). Where DR teaches to use the internal connections/spirals to collapse opponents in a crumpled heap at the practitioner's feet, Aikido redirects those forces and allows the recipient to be 'thrown away' from the Aikido person:

Daitoryu:





Aikido:

Does the Shiko of Sumo have the same intention/purpose as the Shiko of Daito-ryu?........More simple Wikipedia research. Takeda probably was also trained in the Jikishinkage-ryu, one of the predecessors schools of that style was Kage-ryu whose founder was a pirate and occasionally practiced that profession along the Chinese coast and probably also stayed some time in China. Could that pirate have picked up some "Chinese excercises" that eventually transferred into the Jikishinkage school?

Finny wrote:The founder of Aikido was known to have altered both the physical manifestation of the techniques he was taught, as well as not necessarily teaching 'aiki' to his students.. as his teacher had taught him to, and done himself ('teach only one or two the real goods..'). Where DR teaches to use the internal connections/spirals to collapse opponents in a crumpled heap at the practitioner's feet, Aikido redirects those forces and allows the recipient to be 'thrown away' from the Aikido person:

So the Aiki in DR is a principle trained in solo exercises such as Shiko and possibly also in partner excercises, and the Aiki of Aikido is only trained in partner exercises? The very basic "Aikido" technique also found in many other MA is the Nikyu which if applied right allows the "opponent" to crumple before one's feets. With all the basic techniques of Aikido one can chose to crumple down the "opponent" or apply them more as throw away? Well the Nikyu seem more as just a crumple down technique

Trick wrote:Does the Shiko of Sumo have the same intention/purpose as the Shiko of Daito-ryu?........

again, I'm no DR guy (and there are folks here who were/are) - the impression I get is, no. Similar but different. I've heard the DR version is far more involved internally.

Trick wrote:More simple Wikipedia research. Takeda probably was also trained in the Jikishinkage-ryu, one of the predecessors schools of that style was Kage-ryu whose founder was a pirate and occasionally practiced that profession along the Chinese coast and probably also stayed some time in China. Could that pirate have picked up some "Chinese excercises" that eventually transferred into the Jikishinkage school?

Yep, Takeda was trained in Jikishinkage ryu - one of the 'other' styles I mentioned as having somewhat different conditioning methods.. the most famous of which:



Just fwiw - tracing anything Chinese back to Kage ryu through Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage ryu is... questionable, from what I understand. They, together with Kashima Shinryu have histories that don't jive with the other 'Shin/kage' lines, and seem to have been influenced more by the 'Kashima' aspect of their past than the 'Kage'.. but again, this is just me repeating what I've heard. And again, Mr Amdur's book covers this stuff and a lot more.

Trick wrote:So the Aiki in DR is a principle trained in solo exercises such as Shiko and possibly also in partner excercises, and the Aiki of Aikido is only trained in partner exercises? The very basic "Aikido" technique also found in many other MA is the Nikyu which if applied right allows the "opponent" to crumple before one's feets. With all the basic techniques of Aikido one can chose to crumple down the "opponent" or apply them more as throw away? Well the Nikyu seem more as just a crumple down technique

What you hear from the more 'aiki' oriented lines of DR is that 'it' is essentially the same quality developed in CIMA by neigong/jibengong/tui/roushou. And they universally insist that aikido has 'no' aiki.. the physical manipulation of another person into aikido shaped movement does not necessarily indicate the presence of the internal ability - in much the same way as many videos of Taiji guys doing taolu doesn't necessarily indicate any internal ability.

Finny thanks for the info, and I will try to get my hand on " Hidden in plain sight" by Mr,Amdur. Find the history of Japanese martial arts traditions very interesting.