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Silk Reeling

PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:27 am
by 2good2b4gotten
Silk reeling (纏絲, chánsī) is specific feature of Taijiquan (especially Chen style).

In the following video there is explanation of the term by Master Chen Zhonghua.

What do you think about this explanation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q5diPganhw


Re: Silk Reeling

PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:11 am
by origami_itto
Not really how I've come to understand the term but hey whatever works for him

Re: Silk Reeling

PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:14 am
by origami_itto
To be more precise, in my Yang tradition we move the body as if telling silk from a cocoon meaning steady force and pressure, no gaps or breaks or jerks in power that would snap the tiny silk thread.

What he's talking about I would classify as part threading the Qi through the nine bends Pearl

Re: Silk Reeling

PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:57 pm
by Bao
2good2b4gotten wrote:Silk reeling (纏絲, chánsī) is specific feature of Taijiquan (especially Chen style).
In the following video there is explanation of the term by Master Chen Zhonghua.
What do you think about this explanation?


I am not a Chen practitioner, but it seems to lack an important dimension other Chen stylists speak about.

Why a silk thread? Because it's very, very delicate and requires a very precise, delicate movement.


oragami_itto wrote:To be more precise, in my Yang tradition we move the body as if telling silk from a cocoon meaning steady force and pressure, no gaps or breaks or jerks in power that would snap the tiny silk thread.

What he's talking about I would classify as part threading the Qi through the nine bends Pearl


Chen and Yang use different expressions and use different characters. Chen use "reeling" or "twisting reeling".

Yang use "pulling", and yes, pulling silk is like pulling silk out from a cocoon. You must use perfectly even, smooth movements. When you move slow, you should be aware of the movement and pace for every mm, or every little part something, like an arm, moves through space. Perfect awareness.

It's similar to when you practice Chinese calligraphy which is the most sensitive calligraphy there is. Straight movements are perfectly straight and when the brush moves, there is a precision that must be must precise like operating with a scalpel. If not, any jerk, any difference in height, any slight slowing down, will be visible. You can find many different analogies, like the precision when you play pool games etc. There is a precision as using only the exact muscles needed for a certain movement. It develops awareness, precision and smoothness of movements. It can also help the practitioner to develop a deeper level of relaxation as you can use it to learn to only use exactly what muscles is needed for a certain movement.

Re: Silk Reeling

PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:59 pm
by robert
oragami_itto wrote:To be more precise, in my Yang tradition we move the body as if telling silk from a cocoon meaning steady force and pressure, no gaps or breaks or jerks in power that would snap the tiny silk thread.

I tend to agree with this, but in Chen style we can fajin in the form so I would say that force and pressure changes smoothly so there are no gaps or breaks in the power that would snap the silk thread.
I think he is pointing out one way that intention can be used to keep force or pressure on the silk thread.

Re: Silk Reeling

PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:21 pm
by robert
Bao wrote:I am not a Chen practitioner, but it seems to lack an important dimension other Chen stylists speak about.

Why a silk thread? Because it's very, very delicate and requires a very precise, delicate movement.

You make as good point. I like Chen Zhonghua's explanations and I suspect he's exaggerating his movements to show what is happening, but he seems to have a different quality of movement than his teacher and his teacher's classmates.

Compare the video in the OP to his teacher.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-Z1wtmLzr8

And some of Chen Fake's other students.
Feng Zhiqiang

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC-kWkEDnp8
Wow.

Lei Muni

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDeam32IST8

Gu Liu Xin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OYOo0STiSU

Pan Yongzhou

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKQ7BwILTAE

They're all fang song.

Re: Silk Reeling

PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:50 pm
by windwalker
Other then providing a certain quality of movement demonstrated in
their forms, outside of push hands what can they do with it?

Re: Silk Reeling

PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:06 pm
by Bao
windwalker wrote:Other then providing a certain quality of movement demonstrated in
their forms, outside of push hands what can they do with it?


IMO, the precision attained from the kind of practice oragami_itto addressed is one of the real the keys to learn how to control your movements in any situation.

Re: Silk Reeling

PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:42 pm
by origami_itto
Bao wrote:
windwalker wrote:Other then providing a certain quality of movement demonstrated in
their forms, outside of push hands what can they do with it?


IMO, the precision attained from the kind of practice oragami_itto addressed is one of the real the keys to learn how to control your movements in any situation.


Yes that exactly.
You can keep even pressure on a point in space no matter how your body moves, for example, or can issue power from any point on the body in any direction at any time.

There's stories of the indoor disciple "string test" in the Yang family where the teacher would hold one end of a silk thread and the student held the other, and the student had to keep it tight without breaking it while following the teacher's movements.

Re: Silk Reeling

PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:40 pm
by windwalker
oragami_itto wrote:
Yes that exactly.
You can keep even pressure on a point in space no matter how your body moves, for example, or can issue power from any point on the body in any direction at any time.

There's stories of the indoor disciple "string test" in the Yang family where the teacher would hold one end of a silk thread and the student held the other, and the student had to keep it tight without breaking it while following the teacher's movements.


If my memory serves me. Another teacher did the hold the bird test, he passed it but did not do well in the usage test.

He almost got knocked out. Must've been the wrong kind of bird.

Re: Silk Reeling

PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:27 pm
by wayne hansen
In our school we emphasise both twisting and reeling they are quite different

Re: Silk Reeling

PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:38 pm
by origami_itto
windwalker wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:
Yes that exactly.
You can keep even pressure on a point in space no matter how your body moves, for example, or can issue power from any point on the body in any direction at any time.

There's stories of the indoor disciple "string test" in the Yang family where the teacher would hold one end of a silk thread and the student held the other, and the student had to keep it tight without breaking it while following the teacher's movements.


If my memory serves me. Another teacher did the hold the bird test, he passed it but did not do well in the usage test.

He almost got knocked out. Must've been the wrong kind of bird.


Was that the guy with the "rub the watermelon on the floor" trick?

Re: Silk Reeling

PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:33 am
by Appledog
Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

Re: Silk Reeling

PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:11 pm
by wayne hansen
There are 3 Wu forms
Square,circular and circular continuous not many have even seen the third.
I find the Chen silk reeling to be their version of Tien gan.
As with Tien gan not all people practice it with the same understanding

Re: Silk Reeling

PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:33 pm
by Bao
...the (some) Wu school(s) is to teach a square form first before a round form. It's the same form, just bumped up a notch. What CZH seems to be doing here is similar.


Many Yang and Wu/Hao schools teach squareness before roundness. My Yang teacher said that before learning to carry a ball, learn to carry a box. Then when you can carry the box, smooth out the corners. The wu style just gave a name to this basic principle of learning and structured the form practice around it.