Internal Seminar: All must be free to move — John Kaufman

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Re: Internal Seminar: All must be free to move — John Kaufman

Postby Tom on Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:35 am

Itten wrote:I also like Windwalkers analogy. If I may borrow it for a moment? This to me is what “systems” are: a packed parachute delivered to you by someone else. It needs unpacking before it can really be considered useable. . . .

Having had the good fortune to cross train and gently spar outside of aikido I have been able to unpack a little bit of the art but the repacking is starting to look like a bit of a different parachute. Am I then damaging the legacy of O Sensei, who unpacked Daito Ryu amongst other arts, and left out a lot that he thought was no longer relevant, or am I following his path, as Ellis Amdur suggested in “Hidden in Plain Sight”.
I am not sure that “enhanced” aikido or “super” tai chi is the goal. For me, it is the fullest expression of “my” art.
Respect
Alec


Very well stated, Alec. Thank you.
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward.

---Vernon Law
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Re: Internal Seminar: All must be free to move — John Kaufman

Postby willie on Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:49 am

Tom wrote:
willie wrote:The art is still ultra secret...I suspect, Even in their own circle.
So what Chen are you actually seeing? None.


Willie--

I think I understand what you are trying to say here . . . what Chen are we actually seeing there (in the allusions to the famous-name brands like Chen Zhiqiang, Bing, et al.)?

I just wanted to point out that Dan has met and played with one of your own teacher's teachers--Wang Haijun. He's also met and played with and felt and been felt by Liu Chengde, one-on-one and in-depth and with a competent translator. I used to train Chen taijiquan, and Dan's got a very good eye and sense of what Chen involves.

Hi Tom. Yes, I was aware of that Dan did meet Wang on at least one occasion. What they actually did is unknown to me, But I suspect, not much. In his lesser statement, He said that they need to keep what works and get rid of what does not work. I'm not sure if he realizes the severity of that statement. What should they get rid of? Applications from the forms which he believes no longer serve any purpose? Applications that he don't even know and cannot display himself. There's the problem with that. Seeing how those applications have a corresponding counterpart in the forms themselves, Well then wouldn't that mean that the forms themselves should no longer be practiced? No more laojia or xinjia, Ect... And then to make it even worse all of the other Tai Chi Arts come from Chen. So are we supposed to just roll them up and throw those all away too? Just because "some guy" from an entirely different art says so? Those applications are inextricably linked to the forms...They can not be removed and discarded.
Last edited by willie on Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:10 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Internal Seminar: All must be free to move — John Kaufman

Postby aiasthewall on Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:25 pm

Just curious, as I don't know Chen. Is it not possible to take the "engine" developed from the form work and plug it into more "modern" or even just different techniques? If not that seems severely limiting.
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Re: Internal Seminar: All must be free to move — John Kaufman

Postby Trick on Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:43 pm

aiasthewall wrote:Just curious, as I don't know Chen. Is it not possible to take the "engine" developed from the form work and plug it into more "modern" or even just different techniques? If not that seems severely limiting.

If "ancient" techniques are practiced for fighting, self defence, self protection, I'm sure they will fill those purposes very well. Actually I think "ancient" techniques can be seen all the time in for example an MMA fight.
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Re: Internal Seminar: All must be free to move — John Kaufman

Postby aiasthewall on Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:33 pm

Well yes, of course. Anything can be an ancient technique, a front kick is an ancient technique. My question was that if the technique and forms were "inextricably" linked then it would be natural to assume that one could not exist without the other. If the engine that powers the form, or which the form trains, is inextricably lined with the techniques, then my question was whether the engine could be used to power other techniques. More directly, can the Chen method of power generation (or the xing yi or bagua or whatever), be pulled apart from the traditional techniques at all? I think so, but it seemed to be suggested this was not possible.
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Re: Internal Seminar: All must be free to move — John Kaufman

Postby Trick on Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:06 pm

aiasthewall wrote:Well yes, of course. Anything can be an ancient technique, a front kick is an ancient technique. My question was that if the technique and forms were "inextricably" linked then it would be natural to assume that one could not exist without the other. If the engine that powers the form, or which the form trains, is inextricably lined with the techniques, then my question was whether the engine could be used to power other techniques. More directly, can the Chen method of power generation (or the xing yi or bagua or whatever), be pulled apart from the traditional techniques at all? I think so, but it seemed to be suggested this was not possible.

Well, just put it very simple, forms are physical and mental(education) practice in symbiosis. What differs "forms" from for example Yoga is as you know forms also have the idea about combat. If forms practiced right one will be more physicaly and mentally in balance for most kind of activities one may take on.
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Re: Internal Seminar: All must be free to move — John Kaufman

Postby willie on Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:38 am

Trick wrote:Well, just put it very simple, forms are physical and mental(education) practice in symbiosis. What differs "forms" from for example Yoga is as you know forms also have the idea about combat. If forms practiced right one will be more physicaly and mentally in balance for most kind of activities one may take on.
hi trick , The use of the forms is no different then the video showing the guy who got his arm broken on the other thread.
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Re: Internal Seminar: All must be free to move — John Kaufman

Postby willie on Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:41 am

aiasthewall wrote:Well yes, of course. Anything can be an ancient technique, a front kick is an ancient technique. My question was that if the technique and forms were "inextricably" linked then it would be natural to assume that one could not exist without the other. If the engine that powers the form, or which the form trains, is inextricably lined with the techniques, then my question was whether the engine could be used to power other techniques. More directly, can the Chen method of power generation (or the xing yi or bagua or whatever), be pulled apart from the traditional techniques at all? I think so, but it seemed to be suggested this was not possible.
hi, yes the engine can be separated to incorporate techniques from different Arts including the very modern. When I said inextricably linked, I meant to the moves that were already cataloged in the library of moves that is contained within the style itself. After all it is the forms and the applications that creates what is known as a style in the first place. Doing away with the actual applications of segments of forms, make the form or at least that part of it useless. Thank you
Last edited by willie on Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Internal Seminar: All must be free to move — John Kaufman

Postby Activeghost on Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:37 am

The form belongs to you, not someone else. You built it, so you've already discarded and changed many things simply though omission or ignorance. Changing applications based on testing is just another change. Taijiquan is a set of principles, as long as you adhere to them it doesn't matter what shapes you use (not that the forms aren't brilliant in many cases). Forms are just tools.
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Re: Internal Seminar: All must be free to move — John Kaufman

Postby willie on Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:43 am

Activeghost wrote:The form belongs to you, not someone else. You built it, so you've already discarded and changed many things simply though omission or ignorance. Changing applications based on testing is just another change. Taijiquan is a set of principles, as long as you adhere to them it doesn't matter what shapes you use (not that the forms aren't brilliant in many cases). Forms are just tools.


Actually, no.
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