Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

A collection of links to internal martial arts videos. Serious martial arts videos ONLY. Joke videos go to Off the Topic.

Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby jaime_g on Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:38 am

HotSoup wrote:Seems like this is the list of solo exercises https://trueaiki.com/2017/09/02/solo-bo ... s-outline/


Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:I think since the core/basic practice from beginning in Aiki(do/jutsu)/Ju Jutsu are partner exercises of the martial ways that have been out open for the public in the west ever since the days of Edward William Barton Wright, William Fairbairn and Viking Cronholm they want to focus on the (new) solo work 8-)


If partner exercises is the foundation of Aiki, it would be interesting to see a connection between the solo exercises and partner work. For instance, if I see Tai Chi standing exercise, I know exactly what is meant and how to translate into partner practice. But I have no clue about how what he says here translates into partner work.


This is only because your are not as familiar with ground work (TDD 0, 1, ,2 and 3) as you are with standing work. It's going to become much more clear when you watch TDD 4, 5, and 6 (you are going to think "this is xingyi!") or TDD 7, 8, 9, and 10 (then you will think "this is bagua!") and TDD 11 and 12 ("This is taichi!" will come to your mind) and TDD 13 ( "Oh, zhan zhuang!")

The empty hand TDD are genius work. Very simple movements, very deep body mechanics. Really good jibengong for IMA.

There are also other groups of TDD exercises that teach body mechanics for weapons work.

C.J.W. wrote:Even if these exercises had been passed down and widely practiced, I still don't think it'd do most modern Aikido folks much good anyway.

Without proper detailed instruction, they would just be "externalized" and simply performed as part of the warm-up routine at the beginning of each Aikido class.


Agree. The exercises are awesome, but at a global level, Aikido is going to suck pretty much forever everywhere. We could say the same about the 3 big IMA's. Despite their amazing syllabus, the usual practicant is a bad joke of a martial artist.
Last edited by jaime_g on Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
jaime_g
Wuji
 
Posts: 553
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:34 am

Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Itten on Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:19 am

Agree. The exercises are awesome, but at a global level, Aikido is going to suck pretty much forever everywhere. We could say the same about the 3 big IMA's. Despite their amazing syllabus, the usual practicant is a bad joke of a martial artist.


Actually we could say the same thing about most people practising internal exercises, which, lets be clear about it, do not turn people into martial "artistes". I've met and trained with quite a lot of people who have been busy with IP, very few show significant change in martial skill, but great skill with internal exercises. In other words, like push hands and aikido partner work, both get better with practise at performing push hands and aikido. FWIW i think the same about most of the applications in the video links often shown here as IMA: create the desired condition, add student, stir well, and, voila, martial skill. I don't think so!
Itten
Anjing
 
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:46 am

Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby jaime_g on Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:09 am

That's true too. Doing internal work is like doing powerlifting. You can be very strong, very stable, very powerful...and terrible as a fighter. Despite all your conditioning, if you dont fight, you cant fight.
jaime_g
Wuji
 
Posts: 553
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:34 am

Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby asiawide on Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:25 am

Finny wrote:Absolutely not. There is print (and electronic) evidence of the existence of 'this claim' from before Aunkai existed, let alone 'got traction'. FYI


Shiko exist cross arts. Not unique to Aunkai. Problem is nobody (except Sagawa dojo??) gives a shit about it cause mostly it's a part of 'kihon(basic)' training. And nobody does it for years. Shiko is partly a conditioning exercise. It's like spraying wd40 on your rusty body. And partly a balance training. And partly a cross body training. And much more... If you see Ark's video, you can see the change from conditioning to manipulating own mass. Btw this old lady from Feldenkrais explains balance aspect. It's like shiko and also like stomping in cma.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGa5C1Qs8jA
asiawide
Mingjing
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:44 pm

Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby middleway on Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:16 am

Image

Here is an image of someone from Sagawa line showing Shiko. I have no idea how accurate it is.
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"
Me

My Blog: http://www.martialbody.com/Blog-Research
middleway
Wuji
 
Posts: 4485
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:25 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby HotSoup on Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:46 am

Finny wrote:Absolutely not. There is print (and electronic) evidence of the existence of 'this claim' from before Aunkai existed, let alone 'got traction'. FYI

Sorry if I sounded a bit harsh, I didn't really mean it that way. My point was that to an average observer of the JMA internal mechanics scene like myself, it appeared that Aunkai was the source of shiko. Perhaps it's because of the secrecy of Daito-ryu practitioners training internals while Ark has always been open enough about his methods to be able to steal the limelight. I am just genuinely interested in learning more about the subject, so if you could amplify on that "print (and electronic) evidence" and help me and other forum members learn more about it, that would be appreciated.
User avatar
HotSoup
Mingjing
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:20 am

Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Interloper on Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:34 pm

middleway wrote:Image

Here is an image of someone from Sagawa line showing Shiko. I have no idea how accurate it is.


Typical of sequential photos of martial technique, these don't tell you much. ;) All of the interesting stuff is in the dynamic transitions between the static photo points, in any such photo sequence.
Last edited by Interloper on Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4755
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Trick on Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:46 am

I remember many years ago seeing a photo of Hirokazu Kanazawa(legendary Karateka) in an article that if I remember right talked some about his involvement with TJQ and Qigong(ip) practice, in the picture he stands in a Shiko dachi(stance) with his arms stretched out to the sides at shoulder level. I rembrer thinking what kind of Qi gong posture is that it looks as a Sumo stance, so after reading about this " mysterious" Daito-ryu Shiko here on this forum I come to think that maybe it has found its way into Japanese Karate too.
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 1328
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Yugen on Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:53 am

HotSoup wrote:
Finny wrote:Absolutely not. There is print (and electronic) evidence of the existence of 'this claim' from before Aunkai existed, let alone 'got traction'. FYI

Sorry if I sounded a bit harsh, I didn't really mean it that way. My point was that to an average observer of the JMA internal mechanics scene like myself, it appeared that Aunkai was the source of shiko. Perhaps it's because of the secrecy of Daito-ryu practitioners training internals while Ark has always been open enough about his methods to be able to steal the limelight. I am just genuinely interested in learning more about the subject, so if you could amplify on that "print (and electronic) evidence" and help me and other forum members learn more about it, that would be appreciated.


..Just a side note... In Sokaku Takeda's (founder of Daito Ryu) history it is known that he was a avid Sumo competitor in his youth at village tournaments. Even though he wasn't professional Sumo guy ... it's hard to imagine that he was not aware of shiko exercises ... being the "samurai" guy he was ... it's hard to imagine that he would not have performed this exercise and seen its training value... common sense..
Ryan
Seattle, WA
Yugen
Mingjing
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:04 pm
Location: Seattle WA

Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Interloper on Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:23 am

Yugen wrote:
..Just a side note... In Sokaku Takeda's (founder of Daito Ryu) history it is known that he was a avid Sumo competitor in his youth at village tournaments. Even though he wasn't professional Sumo guy ... it's hard to imagine that he was not aware of shiko exercises ... being the "samurai" guy he was ... it's hard to imagine that he would not have performed this exercise and seen its training value... common sense..


Sokaku was not a sumo professional, but his father, Sokichi, was a professional sumo coach/teacher. The story (which I believe is to be found in the article archives of Aikido Journal) is that Sokichi forbade his son from going off to compete in sumo matches at the various fairs and events where local farmers and other strongmen would vie for cash prizes. Sokichi considered his son's training to be an unfair advantage to the largely self-taught country folk, and his own professional status to represent a conflict of interest -- unseemly and unethical. Sokaku would sneak off, win handily, and sneak back home.

Early sumo is purported to have had internal aspect, and shiko was specifically a tanren/undo for cultivating the cross-body connections as well as furthering control of the vertical axis. Its correct practice led to increased power generation abilities and rock-solid structure. I have to wonder whether that content was inherent in the sumo training that Sokichi gave his son, which would help to explain how such a tiny man (around 4'10") could so easily defeat strapping farm boys. It is no longer present in modern-day sumo, for which shiko seems to have become just a mass-dropping and balance exercise.
Last edited by Interloper on Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4755
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby amor on Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:52 pm

Interloper wrote:
Sokaku was not a sumo professional, but his father, Sokichi, was a professional sumo coach/teacher. The story (which I believe is to be found in the article archives of Aikido Journal) is that Sokichi forbade his son from going off to compete in sumo matches at the various fairs and events where local farmers and other strongmen would vie for cash prizes. Sokichi considered his son's training to be an unfair advantage to the largely self-taught country folk, and his own professional status to represent a conflict of interest -- unseemly and unethical. Sokaku would sneak off, win handily, and sneak back home.

Early sumo is purported to have had internal aspect, and shiko was specifically a tanren/undo for cultivating the cross-body connections as well as furthering control of the vertical axis. Its correct practice led to increased power generation abilities and rock-solid structure. I have to wonder whether that content was inherent in the sumo training that Sokichi gave his son, which would help to explain how such a tiny man (around 4'10") could so easily defeat strapping farm boys. It is no longer present in modern-day sumo, for which shiko seems to have become just a mass-dropping and balance exercise.


Have never done shiko but just from trying it out and getting a 'feel' for it I would presume it's about the shifting changes in a push-pull dynamic scenario. As in one side of the body pulls and the other pushes, all instigated by the legs which causes various things to occur above. Would you say shiko trains this?
Last edited by amor on Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
amor
Wuji
 
Posts: 641
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 4:40 am

Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Yugen on Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:11 pm

amor wrote:
Interloper wrote:It is no longer present in modern-day sumo, for which shiko seems to have become just a mass-dropping and balance exercise.


Have never done shiko but just from trying it out and getting a 'feel' for it I would presume it's about the shifting changes in a push-pull dynamic scenario. As in one side of the body pulls and the other pushes, all instigated by the legs which causes various things to occur above. Would you say shiko trains this?


How do you know "internal" training component of shiko is no longer present in Sumo? Have you done it, been coached in it?

I got the chance to train with this guy at a workshop - https://www.sumobyamba.com/. We did Shiko for 10 minutes and it was exhausting, Byamba said they did it for hours before breakfast each morning. You don't do that exercise for hours without developing something more than weight dropping... Grappling, IMO, inherently builds many internal qualities... whether you have supporting vocabulary of terms to denote internal qualities is another thing..

When we got to actually doing Sumo matches there was one where Byamba went against a guy who was approximately 6'3-6'5" and a former linebacker. On the whistle blow I watched Byamba instantaneously hit a vertical leap right over the charging linebacker, Byamba turned in mid-air, shoved the guy to the ground and landed on his feet.... someone may call that simple externals... I think much more is going on that pushing off with his legs for guy of his size.

I also trained with another guy with some history in TCMA internals and BJJ practitioner who has also trained regularly with Byamba.. he gave me his instruction on the basic Sumo Shiko. The key thing is you want to roll your dantian your posting leg and use that hip joint(kua) to lift all of the weight of the extended leg and hold it and bring it down in a controlled manner, not just gravity drop. If you do that slowly and for hours... you will feel the body connection to maintain that control..

I'm no sumo expert, just the 2 cents worth I've picked up.
Ryan
Seattle, WA
Yugen
Mingjing
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:04 pm
Location: Seattle WA

Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Interloper on Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:48 pm

Yugen wrote:
amor wrote:
Interloper wrote:It is no longer present in modern-day sumo, for which shiko seems to have become just a mass-dropping and balance exercise.


Have never done shiko but just from trying it out and getting a 'feel' for it I would presume it's about the shifting changes in a push-pull dynamic scenario. As in one side of the body pulls and the other pushes, all instigated by the legs which causes various things to occur above. Would you say shiko trains this?


How do you know "internal" training component of shiko is no longer present in Sumo? Have you done it, been coached in it?

I got the chance to train with this guy at a workshop - https://www.sumobyamba.com/. We did Shiko for 10 minutes and it was exhausting, Byamba said they did it for hours before breakfast each morning. You don't do that exercise for hours without developing something more than weight dropping... Grappling, IMO, inherently builds many internal qualities... whether you have supporting vocabulary of terms to denote internal qualities is another thing..

When we got to actually doing Sumo matches there was one where Byamba went against a guy who was approximately 6'3-6'5" and a former linebacker. On the whistle blow I watched Byamba instantaneously hit a vertical leap right over the charging linebacker, Byamba turned in mid-air, shoved the guy to the ground and landed on his feet.... someone may call that simple externals... I think much more is going on that pushing off with his legs for guy of his size.

I also trained with another guy with some history in TCMA internals and BJJ practitioner who has also trained regularly with Byamba.. he gave me his instruction on the basic Sumo Shiko. The key thing is you want to roll your dantian your posting leg and use that hip joint(kua) to lift all of the weight of the extended leg and hold it and bring it down in a controlled manner, not just gravity drop. If you do that slowly and for hours... you will feel the body connection to maintain that control..

I'm no sumo expert, just the 2 cents worth I've picked up.


I have not trained in a sumo stable, but have trained extensively in shiko from two different lineages of Daito Ryu that both got it via Sagawa.

You do make a good point -- that some sumo-ka probably still do get the old training and would be considered among the elite. But I do not believe that they are typical, because most contemporary matches out there to see do not exhibit the kind of structure and control that would indicate a strong diagonals development. The overt signs of the internal dynamics just aren't there; at least, not in any of the professional matches that I have had access to viewing outside Japan. And I do like to watch sumo. :)

The movement you describe Byamba making sounds like it would have required the drawing up of the pelvic floor, and spinal extension, but does not indicate the dynamic that shiko imparts -- which requires that at least one foot (or other contact point) have a connection to the earth. It is not an aerial dynamic, but rather, relies on a "push-pull" dynamic from a foot (or shin, or butt cheek) in contact with the ground, to the opposite hip or shoulder (or fingertips of outstretched arm/hand). It's the mechanics that make a "sumo slap" outrageously powerful, and also make a seemingly "empty" hand full, while a "full" leg turns out to be "empty" when an opponent goes to sweep it.
Not saying no, as I haven't seen this sumo-ka Byamba, or the move he made, but from your description it sounds like he is working another dynamic.

You see a lot of muscular power and pushing in contemporary sumo. I have a page out of a mid-19th century sumo training manual, and the woodblock prints show men who are sinewy and much less fatted than contemporary sumoka. I wonder whether that is an indication of a greater reliance today on mass rather than connection. I'll see if I can scan the image, as it's kind of cool.
Last edited by Interloper on Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4755
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Trick on Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:46 am

Interloper wrote:
Yugen wrote:
Have never done shiko but just from trying it out and getting a 'feel' for it I would presume it's about the shifting changes in a push-pull dynamic scenario. As in one side of the body pulls and the other pushes, all instigated by the legs which causes various things to occur above. Would you say shiko trains this?


How do you know "internal" training component of shiko is no longer present in Sumo? Have you done it, been coached in it?

I got the chance to train with this guy at a workshop - https://www.sumobyamba.com/. We did Shiko for 10 minutes and it was exhausting, Byamba said they did it for hours before breakfast each morning. You don't do that exercise for hours without developing something more than weight dropping... Grappling, IMO, inherently builds many internal qualities... whether you have supporting vocabulary of terms to denote internal qualities is another thing..

When we got to actually doing Sumo matches there was one where Byamba went against a guy who was approximately 6'3-6'5" and a former linebacker. On the whistle blow I watched Byamba instantaneously hit a vertical leap right over the charging linebacker, Byamba turned in mid-air, shoved the guy to the ground and landed on his feet.... someone may call that simple externals... I think much more is going on that pushing off with his legs for guy of his size.

I also trained with another guy with some history in TCMA internals and BJJ practitioner who has also trained regularly with Byamba.. he gave me his instruction on the basic Sumo Shiko. The key thing is you want to roll your dantian your posting leg and use that hip joint(kua) to lift all of the weight of the extended leg and hold it and bring it down in a controlled manner, not just gravity drop. If you do that slowly and for hours... you will feel the body connection to maintain that control..

I'm no sumo expert, just the 2 cents worth I've picked up.


I have not trained in a sumo stable, but have trained extensively in shiko from two different lineages of Daito Ryu that both got it via Sagawa.

You do make a good point -- that some sumo-ka probably still do get the old training and would be considered among the elite. But I do not believe that they are typical, because most contemporary matches out there to see do not exhibit the kind of structure and control that would indicate a strong diagonals development. The overt signs of the internal dynamics just aren't there; at least, not in any of the professional matches that I have had access to viewing outside Japan. And I do like to watch sumo. :)

The movement you describe Byamba making sounds like it would have required the drawing up of the pelvic floor, and spinal extension, but does not indicate the dynamic that shiko imparts -- which requires that at least one foot (or other contact point) have a connection to the earth. It is not an aerial dynamic, but rather, relies on a "push-pull" dynamic from a foot (or shin, or butt cheek) in contact with the ground, to the opposite hip or shoulder (or fingertips of outstretched arm/hand). It's the mechanics that make a "sumo slap" outrageously powerful, and also make a seemingly "empty" hand full, while a "full" leg turns out to be "empty" when an opponent goes to sweep it.
Not saying no, as I haven't seen this sumo-ka Byamba, or the move he made, but from your description it sounds like he is working another dynamic.

You see a lot of muscular power and pushing in contemporary sumo. I have a page out of a mid-19th century sumo training manual, and the woodblock prints show men who are sinewy and much less fatted than contemporary sumoka. I wonder whether that is an indication of a greater reliance today on mass rather than connection. I'll see if I can scan the image, as it's kind of cool.[/quote]
Not that I have any plan to participate in such an event, but do you guys know if there is any lower weight limit in Sumo competitions? If there aren't then why don't we see sinewy and less fatted wrestlers try to take on the bigger guys 8-)
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 1328
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Trick on Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:47 am

Not that I have any plan to participate in such an event, but do you guys know if there is any lower weight limit in Sumo competitions? If there aren't then why don't we see sinewy and less fatted wrestlers try to take on the bigger guys 8-)
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 1328
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

PreviousNext

Return to Video Links

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests