Interloper wrote:Yugen wrote:
Have never done shiko but just from trying it out and getting a 'feel' for it I would presume it's about the shifting changes in a push-pull dynamic scenario. As in one side of the body pulls and the other pushes, all instigated by the legs which causes various things to occur above. Would you say shiko trains this?
How do you know "internal" training component of shiko is no longer present in Sumo? Have you done it, been coached in it?
I got the chance to train with this guy at a workshop -
https://www.sumobyamba.com/. We did Shiko for 10 minutes and it was exhausting, Byamba said they did it for hours before breakfast each morning. You don't do that exercise for hours without developing something more than weight dropping... Grappling, IMO, inherently builds many internal qualities... whether you have supporting vocabulary of terms to denote internal qualities is another thing..
When we got to actually doing Sumo matches there was one where Byamba went against a guy who was approximately 6'3-6'5" and a former linebacker. On the whistle blow I watched Byamba instantaneously hit a vertical leap right over the charging linebacker, Byamba turned in mid-air, shoved the guy to the ground and landed on his feet.... someone may call that simple externals... I think much more is going on that pushing off with his legs for guy of his size.
I also trained with another guy with some history in TCMA internals and BJJ practitioner who has also trained regularly with Byamba.. he gave me his instruction on the basic Sumo Shiko. The key thing is you want to roll your dantian your posting leg and use that hip joint(kua) to lift all of the weight of the extended leg and hold it and bring it down in a controlled manner, not just gravity drop. If you do that slowly and for hours... you will feel the body connection to maintain that control..
I'm no sumo expert, just the 2 cents worth I've picked up.
I have not trained in a sumo stable, but have trained extensively in shiko from two different lineages of Daito Ryu that both got it via Sagawa.
You do make a good point -- that some sumo-ka probably still do get the old training and would be considered among the elite. But I do not believe that they are typical, because most contemporary matches out there to see do not exhibit the kind of structure and control that would indicate a strong diagonals development. The overt signs of the internal dynamics just aren't there; at least, not in any of the professional matches that I have had access to viewing outside Japan. And I do like to watch sumo.
The movement you describe Byamba making sounds like it would have required the drawing up of the pelvic floor, and spinal extension, but does not indicate the dynamic that shiko imparts -- which requires that at least one foot (or other contact point) have a connection to the earth. It is not an aerial dynamic, but rather, relies on a "push-pull" dynamic from a foot (or shin, or butt cheek) in contact with the ground, to the opposite hip or shoulder (or fingertips of outstretched arm/hand). It's the mechanics that make a "sumo slap" outrageously powerful, and also make a seemingly "empty" hand full, while a "full" leg turns out to be "empty" when an opponent goes to sweep it.
Not saying no, as I haven't seen this sumo-ka Byamba, or the move he made, but from your description it sounds like he is working another dynamic.
You see a lot of muscular power and pushing in contemporary sumo. I have a page out of a mid-19th century sumo training manual, and the woodblock prints show men who are sinewy and much less fatted than contemporary sumoka. I wonder whether that is an indication of a greater reliance today on mass rather than connection. I'll see if I can scan the image, as it's kind of cool.[/quote]
Not that I have any plan to participate in such an event, but do you guys know if there is any lower weight limit in Sumo competitions? If there aren't then why don't we see sinewy and less fatted wrestlers try to take on the bigger guys