free push hands and bounciness

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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby robert on Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:10 pm

charles wrote:I don't understand the jumping/stomping thing.

Years ago there was a video on youtube of a taiji guy in HK teaching his students. In part of it he was teaching his students to jump/stomp. Unfortunately that video wasn't up very long. It seems that behavior is trained. Since then I've noticed a number of schools out of HK seem to teach that.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby robert on Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:36 pm

Here's an example of push hands without the jump/stomping. Both these guys have pretty good peng jin.



Notice that Chen Bing does not lift his feet in the air when he gets pushed. If you look at the video in the OP the guy that gets pushed lifts his feet up - he deliberately gets air. Why?
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:32 pm

robert wrote:Here's an example of push hands without the jump/stomping. Both these guys have pretty good peng jin.



Notice that Chen Bing does not lift his feet in the air when he gets pushed. If you look at the video in the OP the guy that gets pushed lifts his feet up - he deliberately gets air. Why?

Oh come on Robert... that's not fair. You're comparing real high-level dudes against those dudes? As I had said, the pressure was allowed to build up. Whereas in this video, not so much. I actually am trying to find an old video of me with my old style with some hopping in it like that
Last edited by willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby robert on Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:37 pm

Hi Wille, I'm not high level, but I don't do the bunny hop. If someone gets my center and pushes I tend to either step back or stumble back. As I pointed out in the video in the OP the guy that gets pushed raises his feet (bends his knees) - I don't do that. I haven't seen anyone do that at push hands workshops that I've been to. I've only seen that on youtube. Also, as I said, I have seen people being trained to do that - although the people were speaking Cantonese or Mandarin so I didn't catch the rationale.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby Subitai on Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:52 pm

Ok, so it's up for discussion so here goes....Wow, so many things to comment on here.
I'm gonna refer to guy on left as demo student and the white shirt guy on right as the sifu

1) I know the stomping done by the student is a matter of opinion by some people here, but I maintain it's still NOT necessary.

Student is just WAY over doing it...just watch at ~ :30 seconds into it...complete BS not necessary. If he really needed to move he could just casually step back or to the side without the dramatics.

Sifu gets pushed back himself and does a soft step backward with his right foot at 2:14 or so... NOW THAT is more like it.

2) Question, what is the sifu saying to the tall blonde at 4:20 ? You won't jump because you don't have "........." ??? What did he say????

Truth is.... she hasn't drunk the cool aid yet.

3) Then the sifu says, "what happens if you don't jump?" and proceeds to imply that the blonde would be struck by his right hand at 4:26.

REALLY...i'm mean REALLY!??? So unless she jumped and gives up her base (her root) her center ...she would not be able to defend it? Common people be serious!!!

- The sifu then tries to explain how his students ball of energy is connected (unlike hers) and that's why. The problem with this is obvious... it means that if you don't react a certain way it doesn't work. If you're not trained in the Taiji way of structure it will not work i.e....BS again.

4) IF ANYTHING it should be,
- the more you are trained in Taiji and understand how it works, the better you should be able to counter and defuse attacks like this WITHOUT jumping.

- the less you know about Taiji or understand how it works it just sucks for you

5) ok 5:00 - 5:10 The sifu is saying, "so in a fight":

- I'm keeping in mind his discussion is about Taiji Skills...The title says "Push Hands..." Afterward at 6:15 the sifu demonstrates simple peng lifting his arms up on the blonde.

- My comment about how he demonstrates it's use in fighting is that what he's doing is NOT SOLEY a Taiji Skill. I.e. the Sifu's right arm attacks with "Bing Geng" (whipping power) across the student's bridge and this type of energy is learned in other styles like Choy Li Fat or Hung Ga and such. NO big deal.

====================================================================================
IMO, attacking like that is not what makes Taiji worth practicing...yes I realize that is my opinion

For a demo... in the same exact example, IF I HAD TO BE THE ATTACKER and the student is holding his left arm like that:

1) I would reach out with my right hand quickly and smoothly to Hook or Pluck to control his arm(properly) .... and perhaps attack with my left hand.

2) It now depends on how he reacts to my left but I would follow his counter into his own downfall. I realize that it's far more passive aggressive but IMO it better represents why I do Taiji.

3) I don't particularly feel that Taiji is best used for smashing through bridges....instead, In the right places a little bit of patients can go far.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:17 pm

robert wrote:Hi Wille, I'm not high level, but I don't do the bunny hop. If someone gets my center and pushes I tend to either step back or stumble back. As I pointed out in the video in the OP the guy that gets pushed raises his feet (bends his knees) - I don't do that. I haven't seen anyone do that at push hands workshops that I've been to. I've only seen that on youtube. Also, as I said, I have seen people being trained to do that - although the people were speaking Cantonese or Mandarin so I didn't catch the rationale.


There is no real reason to hop. That stuff is just more for fun in a friendly environment.
I don't have many video's of my old style, but this one has some hopping, which i am doing on purpose and I'm sure that if you look at the forces, you can see why.
There is no sonic wave lol!
This is unrehearsed freestyle push hands + just fun stuff.
The other guy has about 6 years taiji at that time. He is not my student and that is not my school, I'm a private student.
Last edited by willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby windwalker on Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:51 pm

Interesting comments.

The whole point of the demo in this setting was in reaction to a question asked about why do some bounce out and others don't.
The point of my posting it here was to help clarify from a view point which I happen to agree with.

I had asked some basic questions in order to talk about with a common understanding or view point or if failing that to help provide a viewpoint from which others might not agree with but might see that the theory is consistent with what they believe to be happening.

is pung jin dependent on structure?
If one has a good structure does this mean they also have peng jin?
If one has no structure do they or can they have peng jin?

Why does CMA have this or use this type of jin what is it a product from?
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby windwalker on Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:03 pm

paraphrasing some of the beginning of the demo for context

"Hes not jumping on his own, but whats happening. Is that because his structure is one, a small force can move the big ball, like a ping pong ball, interacting with another lager ball."

Then he demos what happens in a free sparing type of situation.

question : he is the initiator

He answers then goes on to demo allowing people feel whats happening.

The people there asked the same questions as many have here, with the benefit of being there.
He goes on to mention how it is used, when it works, and when and why it will not work along with the resonans behind the skill sets demoed.

To be clear I posted this not to prove or disprove only provide a viewpoint that others can either agree or disagree with
sharing their thoughts in the process
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby windwalker on Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:30 pm

Charles wrote :I'd suggest the raise arms exercise was "all about" intention, or specifically, the difference in his intention versus hers, and why his worked and hers didn't. An excellent example. One can teach one how to do that in a few minutes. It isn't difficult. I've done exactly that with a few fellow students who started out like the woman in the video.

And like the woman in the clip many sensing something attempt to change as she did kind of negating what the teacher wants them to feel. Ones own intent has to be pretty clear and focused normally not something that is left on so to speak.



wayne hansen wrote:
Apart from the things I already mentioned about the raise hands demo
He gets her to push directly into his wrists to stop his raise hands
When he does it on her he pulls straight down so she has no hope
Wille wrote: yes, but she could have bent her knees to undermine what he was doing and then raise arms


All of which tends to negate what the teacher is "demoning" Its not live, nor a contest.

Wille wrote: It's happening in that video, it's very easy for me to see. The process is so simple it's just that both people have Peng Jin. So both are sort of carrying a springiness with them. If only one had the springiness and the other a good stand-up Grappler, it would not work

Good observation if you can follow on with what makes pung jin it would help to understand what would and not work on "good stand up grappler"

Charles wrote: And, that's the part I don't understand. People who have "Peng Jin" can be bounced around and hop and jump and stomp when faced with a simple push? Those who don't have, can easily just step back to relieve pressure, make space and maintain balance?

In a demo setting its used to show the concept, in live setting as he illustrated they do not have the time. If one feels the "pressure" it means that they are relying on the structure not peng jin. Which why I asked about how some view each..in a previous post.

Skilled people can develop internal tensions within the opponent regardless of whether or not the opponent has "Peng Jin". If they are "nice" they'll leave a single-direction pressure/tension relief for that person to "eject" themselves into. When those tensions are released, it can be "explosive", which may include stomping and hopping, etc. If they aren't "nice", they'll inure the opponent where they stand: there is no direction left to the opponent to relieve those internal tensions and something "gives". This is different than a simple single-point or single-direction push, pull or strike.

Which should answer or clear up your questions in your post. He mentioned that with pung jin, all points are the same at every point.

" 1.The tendency of every physical system to achieve the least energy.
2. The tendency of every physical system to achieve maximum disorder."

how does or could this relate relative to what some question in the demo

Image


so far a good discussion....allowing for differing view points.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby windwalker on Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:42 pm

willie wrote:
robert wrote:Hi Wille, I'm not high level, but I don't do the bunny hop. If someone gets my center and pushes I tend to either step back or stumble back. As I pointed out in the video in the OP the guy that gets pushed raises his feet (bends his knees) - I don't do that. I haven't seen anyone do that at push hands workshops that I've been to. I've only seen that on youtube. Also, as I said, I have seen people being trained to do that - although the people were speaking Cantonese or Mandarin so I didn't catch the rationale.


There is no real reason to hop. That stuff is just more for fun in a friendly environment.
I don't have many video's of my old style, but this one has some hopping, which i am doing on purpose and I'm sure that if you look at the forces, you can see why. There is no sonic wave lol! nice demo. are saying that you can lift the guy up just using your strength from that position as "dead weight".

This is unrehearsed freestyle push hands + just fun stuff.
The other guy has about 6 years taiji at that time. He is not my student and that is not my school, I'm a private student.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ym7uN0dw2Rs
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:03 pm

windwalker wrote:
willie wrote:I don't have many video's of my old style, but this one has some hopping, which i am doing on purpose and I'm sure that if you look at the forces, you can see why. There is no sonic wave lol! nice demo. are saying that you can lift the guy up just using your strength from that position as "dead weight".

I'm just kind of wondering why you added things to what I had said? As I did not write what you had posted as me saying in blue. In my video there is a crystal clear reason why I'm hopping. It is just to release the tension and then reground
Last edited by willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby windwalker on Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:14 pm

willie wrote:
windwalker wrote:
willie wrote:I don't have many video's of my old style, but this one has some hopping, which i am doing on purpose and I'm sure that if you look at the forces, you can see why. There is no sonic wave lol! nice demo. are saying that you can lift the guy up just using your strength from that position as "dead weight".

I'm just kind of wondering why you added things to what I had said? As I did not write what you had posted as me saying in blue. In my video there is a crystal clear reason why I'm hopping. It is just to release the tension and then reground



my bag, it was my question I thought that was kinda clear...

"nice demo. are saying that you can lift the guy up just using your strength from that position as "dead weight".

you mentioned no sonic "wave" just checking on whether we're understanding a "wave" within the same context.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:03 pm

my bag, it was my question I thought that was kinda clear...



you mentioned no sonic "wave" just checking on whether we're understanding a "wave" within the same context.[/quote]
First off, it isn't called my bag. The term I believe is, my bad. I actually was not that impressed with the demo I'm sorry. The most impressive thing was the move to knock down the boxers jabbing hand and get flank on him. Neither of them appear to have good root as you can constantly see that either their heels or their toes are not connected to the ground. And as far as my comment on sonic wave, that was a joke that I threw in there about the energy bubble.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby windwalker on Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:25 pm

willie wrote:my bag, it was my question I thought that was kinda clear...



you mentioned no sonic "wave" just checking on whether we're understanding a "wave" within the same context.

First off, it isn't called my bag. The term I believe is, my bad. I actually was not that impressed with the demo I'm sorry. The most impressive thing was the move to knock down the boxers jabbing hand and get flank on him. Neither of them appear to have good root as you can constantly see that either their heels or their toes are not connected to the ground. And as far as my comment on sonic wave, that was a joke that I threw in there about the energy bubble.[/quote]

I see.

Regarding the demo, its a demo relative skill is relative.
It addressed some points that are often brought up here.

What I look for in demos or clips like yours for instance is whether
what is said is being used whether I agree with it or not...

I can still appreciate the skill

you mentioned "root" which in the clip he also mentions but it seems to be different.
does surface area equal "rooting" ?
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:44 pm

Windy I don't know what you mean by it's not live
I can see it's not a contest
That doesn't negate the fact he is changing what he tells her to do when he does it himself
If you can't see that it explains a lot
Willly I can't see much on the dancing in the dark clip except that you are both moving extremely slow
I wouldn't expect any bounce at that speed
The CZW clip is just all Chinna so once again I would not expect there would be much bounce as there is no pushing and the other guy never attacks
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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