Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby cloudz on Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:26 am

Tiga Pukul wrote:Isn't TaiJi also supposed to train for high quality in hitting?


sure, did someone say otherwise..


Or is it just the wrestling variation that is practiced in the West?


lol. come and see. :D
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby cloudz on Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:28 am

I guess we must have missed all the high quality striking taiji from the east, duh.
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:30 am

cloudz wrote:
grahamB wrote: I absorbed your force (send it to the ground via the back foot) without moving back, and bounce you back by sending that force back at you.... am I yielding? I think a lot of tai chi people would count that as a 'yes', even though I am not physically retreating from your force.


I don't really want to open up a can of worms but I think this is the whole terminology, jargon issue rearing it's head.
For me now; yielding is a subset of neutralizing.

I'll try to be clearer.. Yielding for me has come to represent the tactic and or method of 'moving with'.
Whilst it does neutralize force; Nuetralizing can also use other methods other than this yielding/ moving with; the main one rotation (deflecting with 4oz skill) and what you're calling the method your pic alludes to.. rooting/ grounding

For your question my answer would be not yielding per se in that case but still a nuetralizing skill (hua) by way of <insert jargon of choice>
So far we have 3 main ways to "hua" or neutralize force coming in; grounding, rotation and yielding(moving with). One more for when we aren't tactile; evasion.

This/evasion is like yielding/moving with actually (imo) just when you are not in tactile contact.


So, ignoring the jargon (whether it's called 'neautralising' or 'yielding') would you agree with my larger point that the method described is actually part of push hands?
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby cloudz on Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:39 am

GrahamB wrote:
cloudz wrote:
grahamB wrote: I absorbed your force (send it to the ground via the back foot) without moving back, and bounce you back by sending that force back at you.... am I yielding? I think a lot of tai chi people would count that as a 'yes', even though I am not physically retreating from your force.


I don't really want to open up a can of worms but I think this is the whole terminology, jargon issue rearing it's head.
For me now; yielding is a subset of neutralizing.

I'll try to be clearer.. Yielding for me has come to represent the tactic and or method of 'moving with'.
Whilst it does neutralize force; Nuetralizing can also use other methods other than this yielding/ moving with; the main one rotation (deflecting with 4oz skill) and what you're calling the method your pic alludes to.. rooting/ grounding

For your question my answer would be not yielding per se in that case but still a nuetralizing skill (hua) by way of <insert jargon of choice>
So far we have 3 main ways to "hua" or neutralize force coming in; grounding, rotation and yielding(moving with). One more for when we aren't tactile; evasion.

This/evasion is like yielding/moving with actually (imo) just when you are not in tactile contact.


So, ignoring the jargon (whether it's called 'neautralising' or 'yielding') would you agree with my larger point that the method described is actually part of push hands?


ah yeah ok i'm with you now. yes if you are not pushing back into the force with your own then in my book that's never been force on force.
if Conner is actively jamming and doing it by applying some force into the opponent then I'd tentatively agree with Wayne. You shouldn't IMO offer force that people could borrow. If he's placing his limb there and not giving any force in to borrow, then it's according to the principles of TCC.
But it depends what he's actually doing - I confess I have not watched the analysis of Connor here..
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:54 am

I don't think you could see it on video, if he was doing that. Although I think Connor just throwing up a frame and doing whatever he can to block the attacker from advancing to a clinch, while moving back, out of the way.

You can see Tim Cartmell using the "frame" concept continually in the sparring bit at the start of this trailer:

Last edited by GrahamB on Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby Wanderingdragon on Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:25 am

Though much as Connor did, I would like to see an elite boxer at prime of just beyond make an honest effort. Those things that might be advantageous, ability to strike on the break, elbowing, pushing away to strike, forearm control. There is much “ dirty boxing “ well suited for the cage. For a boxer it is only the ability to stay on his feet that may trip him up.
Last edited by Wanderingdragon on Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:37 pm

GrahamB wrote:An unusual title for a thread... but watch this vid on Connor McGregor's takedown defence and you can see the similarities to concepts from taijiquan tui shou like sticking, following and listening.

I would agree some of the concepts, goals and effects on opponent are similar, without getting into exact terminology. Conor probes, listens, sticks, siezes, yields, follows, etc. I see Conor using more similar Tai Chi concepts than other Tai Chi sparring/fight videos.

GrahamB wrote:I don't think you could see it on video, if he was doing that. Although I think Connor just throwing up a frame and doing whatever he can to block the attacker from advancing to a clinch, while moving back, out of the way.

Yes, I saw that. He is controlling distance and preventing high level wrestlers' takedowns by seizing . At 2:10 of the OP video, Conor is warding off and releasing (yielding) against punches.

Here Conor is practicing yielding against takedowns:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCTIxF1MexY

is this considered force against force?
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:04 pm

Nice granby roll from McGregor there. He lost the wrestling but won the jiujitsu.
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:26 pm

marvin8 wrote:
GrahamB wrote:An unusual title for a thread... but watch this vid on Connor McGregor's takedown defence and you can see the similarities to concepts from taijiquan tui shou like sticking, following and listening.

I would agree some of the concepts, goals and effects on opponent are similar, without getting into exact terminology. Conor probes, listens, sticks, siezes, yields, follows, etc. I see Conor using more similar Tai Chi concepts than other Tai Chi sparring/fight videos.

GrahamB wrote:I don't think you could see it on video, if he was doing that. Although I think Connor just throwing up a frame and doing whatever he can to block the attacker from advancing to a clinch, while moving back, out of the way.

Yes, I saw that. He is controlling distance and preventing high level wrestlers' takedowns by seizing . At 2:10 of the OP video, Conor is warding off and releasing (yielding) against punches.

Here Conor is practicing yielding against takedowns:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCTIxF1MexY

is this considered force against force?
Image




What Cheng is doing there is micro redirection of force
It is just a tricky demo showing something smith and his mates can understand
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby Ron Panunto on Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:37 pm

As per the CMC demo photo, it would only be force-against-force if CMC fell forward when Smith stopped pushing. The idea is to root the force into the ground and not push back.
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