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"traditional" v. "modern" MA: jiu-jitsu

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:14 am
by Tom
Recently in his Tai Chi Notebook blog, Graham Barlow posted an interesting look by BJJ black belt Stephan Kesting at "traditional" jiu-jitsu compared/contrasted with BJJ, a more modern development, from the point of view of how techniques are developed with specific circumstances in mind (e.g., opponent potentially holding a knife).

https://taichinotebook.wordpress.com/2018/01/18/traditional-vs-brazilian-jiujitsu/

Re: "traditional" v. "modern" MA: jiu-jitsu

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:09 pm
by GrahamB
Ineteresting blog - I used to know that guy :)

Re: "traditional" v. "modern" MA: jiu-jitsu

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:31 pm
by Finny
Great videos - a fantastic analysis of the differences, from two guys who know what they're talking aboot.

Re: "traditional" v. "modern" MA: jiu-jitsu

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:35 pm
by Tom
GrahamB wrote:Ineteresting blog - I used to know that guy :)


That was before you became a stable genius.

Re: "traditional" v. "modern" MA: jiu-jitsu

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:23 pm
by Franklin
cool vids


but why did he have to kiai to stab the dude...
;D

Re: "traditional" v. "modern" MA: jiu-jitsu

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:36 pm
by Finny
Franklin wrote:
but why did he have to kiai to stab the dude...
;D


Because "traditional". Some kiai in koryu have different meanings/purposes (come to think of it, just as in CMA... i remember being told about that in my CLF days)

Re: "traditional" v. "modern" MA: jiu-jitsu

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:07 am
by Franklin
Finny wrote:
Franklin wrote:
but why did he have to kiai to stab the dude...
;D


Because "traditional". Some kiai in koryu have different meanings/purposes (come to think of it, just as in CMA... i remember being told about that in my CLF days)



always thought those clf sounds were weird too
sort of stylistic only-- not for any internal training...

Re: "traditional" v. "modern" MA: jiu-jitsu

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:37 am
by windwalker
Franklin wrote:
Finny wrote:
Franklin wrote:

always thought those clf sounds were weird too
sort of stylistic only-- not for any internal training...


Hung style uses sounds as part of its internal training. Iron wire set


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECk0cXs9U00

Re: "traditional" v. "modern" MA: jiu-jitsu

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:42 am
by Finny
Franklin wrote:
always thought those clf sounds were weird too
sort of stylistic only-- not for any internal training...

Yeah me too - my line didn't do them iirc.

some kiai in traditional Japanese arts have purposes other than internal training, from what I gather

Re: "traditional" v. "modern" MA: jiu-jitsu

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:59 pm
by C.J.W.
Great vids and nice moves. However, as someone who's dabbled in classical Jujitsu in the past, here's my two cents:

1. There are literally hundreds of extant and extinct styles of classical Jujitsu in Japan, with each having its own unique set of techniques and combative focus and approach. It'd be erroneous, IMO, to assume that a particular technique taken from an unspecified system could be deemed representative of all classical Jujitsu styles. It'd be much better if they'd mention specifically the style from which the arm bar they show comes from just so that the viewers can be informed.

2. The rear naked choke I've seen in most classical styles, or koryu, usually involves crushing the opponent's trachea by applying direct pressure with the radial bone of the forearm (a.k.a. 'an air choke'). The idea is to damage the opponent as quickly as possible once the choke is in place -- as opposed to pressuring the carotid arteries with a blood choke and waiting for 5 to 10 seconds (if you are lucky) for them to pass out. The blood choke version of RNC, IMO, is sportive and not classical. Choking techniques involving the use of lapels, on the other hand, are the ones meant to be used MAINLY as blood chokes.

3. Blood-curdling kiai from Wushu and JMA guys always make my toes curl. Kiai is not a shouting contest, nor is it done on purpose; it's the RESULT of rapidly condensing and sinking the breath into the lower dantian for an extra burst of power (which is useful both offensively and defensively) at the moment of impact. It's like switching on the turbo/NOS in a car race for that extra "oomph" near the finish line.

Re: "traditional" v. "modern" MA: jiu-jitsu

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:22 pm
by Finny
C.J.W. wrote:Great vids and nice moves. However, as someone who's dabbled in classical Jujitsu in the past, here's my two cents:

1. There are literally hundreds of extant and extinct styles of classical Jujitsu in Japan, with each having its own unique set of techniques and combative focus and approach. It'd be erroneous, IMO, to assume that a particular technique taken from an unspecified system could be deemed representative of all classical Jujitsu styles. It'd be much better if they'd mention specifically the style from which the arm bar they show comes from just so that the viewers can be informed.

2. The rear naked choke I've seen in most classical styles, or koryu, usually involves crushing the opponent's trachea by applying direct pressure with the radial bone of the forearm (a.k.a. 'an air choke'). The idea is to damage the opponent as quickly as possible once the choke is in place -- as opposed to pressuring the carotid arteries with a blood choke and waiting for 5 to 10 seconds (if you are lucky) for them to pass out. The blood choke version of RNC, IMO, is sportive and not classical. Choking techniques involving the use of lapels, on the other hand, are the ones meant to be used MAINLY as blood chokes.

3. Blood-curdling kiai from Wushu and JMA guys always make my toes curl. Kiai is not a shouting contest, nor is it done on purpose; it's the RESULT of rapidly condensing and sinking the breath into the lower dantian for an extra burst of power (which is useful both offensively and defensively) at the moment of impact. It's like switching on the turbo/NOS in a car race for that extra "oomph" near the finish line.


1. Takenouchi ryu Bichu-den.

On the other points I don't really have much input I'm afraid - not a JJ guy. I agree with some of the points made in '3' - although I think your description is somewhat limiting. I know of koryu which use kiai as a form of 'opener' - wherein the practitioners signal to each other that "it's on", essentially. There are also other reasons given - some spiritual, associated with performing todome (coup de gras), some for 'switching on the NOS' as you say, some psychological (Jigen ryu springs to mind hehe) some for other reasons.

Re: "traditional" v. "modern" MA: jiu-jitsu

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:56 pm
by C.J.W.
Regarding kiai, perhaps I should have avoided borrowing the Japanese term. I was speaking more from the perspective of CMA/CIMA.

Sure, the sound produced when performing kiai, like you said, can serve a variety of purposes. (There are health benefits as well when performed correctly.) The point I was getting at is that there are many TMA practitioners out there, especially those who've watched Karate Kid too many times, who tend to think that kiai is just about making a battle cry to look tough, and only shout for the sake of shouting without giving it much thought.

Re: "traditional" v. "modern" MA: jiu-jitsu

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:19 pm
by Finny
Yeah absolutely. I personally find it pretty challenging - my school is known for having particularly long (in Japanese terms) forms, and when I'm focused and pushing myself I tend not to kiai enough, or at all.

But sure - plenty of folks are pretty cringy with it.