Martial Man - Adam Mizner revisited

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Re: Martial Man - Adam Mizner revisited

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:34 pm

charles wrote:
Bao wrote:I found a video with a somewhat brief explanation of mechanics with a demonstration.



The mechanics are pretty good.


Interesting.

Back in the 1990's Mike Sigman proposed the "Teacher Test". It was a simple test intended to be a "go/no-go" gauge if someone was in the ball park. Simply, the test involved having the "teacher" place his hand on the student's chest (or side of upper arm) and then punch the student without withdrawing the arm, shoulder or hip to "cock" the punch. A "zero-inch" punch with no wind-up or withdrawal. The test, though simple, was an indication of whether or not the teacher knew how to power a strike using "internal" body mechanics. If the teacher resorted to withdrawing the arm, shoulder or drove the strike by cocking the hip, it wasn't "internal".

The test wasn't intended to peg a practitioners skill level, simply whether or not he or she used "internal" body mechanics to power the strike.

Watch the strikes in the video, above, on Youtube with the speed set to the slowest (.25). In your opinion, does it pass the "Teacher Test"? What powers his strike?

Mike has some interesting ideas that I found helpful 17 years ago.
These days seems like his ideas have taken him on a much different path than I'm walking.

now THIS video is why I send Adam $50 a month and not any of you lot
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Re: Martial Man - Adam Mizner revisited

Postby marvin8 on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:37 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
Bao wrote:I found a video with a somewhat brief explanation of mechanics with a demonstration.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCRe9q50XYA

The mechanics are pretty good. Focused, stable, a direct connection from foot to hand through the center. Yet there is to tell if he can do something more than push someone away, something that probably needs to be felt first hand. I think he probably could. It just needs to be speed up, more acceleration and that fist could hurt.

If he explained it in a similar way in the interview I would be satisfied. But there he still speak more about pushing and qi and not very much about mechanics for striking.

But I suppose that oragami_itto will object to everything i write here just for some more fun... ::)


HAHA.

What I'm saying earlier is that you're just not seeing the strikes. They're quick, solid, not that powerful, but he throws a good half dozen or so into Kieran during the course of the demo. They're similar to the strikes shown interspersed with his form here. Not trying to kill anybody, just making enough contact to know contact is made. Somebody did leave some timestamps.



Honestly, striking is mostly dumb in a fight.
1) If you don't have control of the opponent and a clear shot, it's wasted energy
2) Your hands are weaker than most targets like skulls
3) Every bit of force you put into the opponent also comes back into you.

Why not use taiji? Blend with the opponent's mass/force and send it into itself against itself, or into something harder and less than your fist. It's much easier to get much more damage that way.

People forget that Yang Banhou killed his own daughter in a training accident. This shit is no joke. Learning control is far more important than looking for power. The power comes.

Yes, specifically at:
marvin8 wrote:
Bao wrote:What he mention that he can do is not important. A lot of teachers speak a lot. I am very tired of everything teachers say. I never listen to what they say anymore, I only want to see what he can do. Many people speak about Qi and show pushing. This is no proof that they can apply their method for finishing strategies. Compare with William Chen. He teaches to everyone how to use a completely relaxed and empty body method to strike with. You can see quite a few vids with his demonstrations on the tube. Everyone who feels what he does or can look closely at what he does don't doubt that the now over 80 years old small guy have at least one of the strongest punches they've witnessed. He talks the talk and walks the walk. Now if you ask Mizner how to strike, he show a push and speak about Qi. Again, a push does not translate automatically into a strike. To make some damage, the fist need to be able to penetrate a surface. This is different from unbalancing a mass. They are different skills that needs different body mechanics and both needs practice.

Adam doesn't only "show a push and speak about Qi." Adam strikes at 7:47, 7:52, 8:00, 8:03, 8:06, 8:08, 8:18, 8:21, 8:39, 8:44 of the video.

At 7:19, he explains striking:
Adam Mizner wrote:In the form there are endless postures. This is striking, the five punches, the different directions of striking, the elbow, the shoulder stroke, the whole body as a hand. So, we strike like any other art. We hit them. How you do it. How you generate the power is different. And, how you control the situation is different.
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Re: Martial Man - Adam Mizner revisited

Postby Ozguorui on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:37 pm

At .25 speed, I see the recipient bowing his back to move away before the punch is delivered......the puncher's back does not bow at all (remains bowed the other way than I would expect).
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Re: Martial Man - Adam Mizner revisited

Postby Aqui on Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:32 pm

retreats108 wrote:the person striking uses a phoenix eye fist, anyone can do this by poking with chisel index phoenix eye fist, its hurts like anything and anyone will fly away.

It is not what this person says it is.


Alex, I really wonder why you try so hard to discredit Mizner (in another thread you accused him of using tricks and faking skill...)?
Is it because your are jealous of his success?
Or is it that Mizner has reached a level of internal power that you are far away from?

Seriously Alex go see Andy Mack (in Richmond, London) and feel for yourself that Mizner's stuff is the real thing or better go his next UK seminar!

You, Alex above all should be happy that someone is promoting true internal skills!

Best,

Aqui

PS:

I post again (already did so on another thread) Lan Tran's statement concerning Mizner. Lan Tran is a student and teacher under GM Sam Chin.

Thank you Adam Mizner and Jim Russo for hosting this workshop and inviting me as a guest. I also got to meet Adam's other half Kingdao Nilchai who was the videographer of the event.
Adam and I met across FB a little over 3 years ago. I can attest Adam's skill is profound at a level far above what I had imagined. Everyone wants to know how he felt and if there was any difference w/ how the ILC touch feels.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say he owned me before physical touch happened. There was no difference in feel between how he felt and how Sifu Sam Chin feels on the touch. Completely neutral and empty. I'm sure a video will be posted soon and you can see what I had to deal with. LOL
I can make many parallels with the skills in what Adam does and how ZXD/ILC manifests the internal quality. Adam pretty much did to me what people see me doing to others in my videos but at a level I have not reached yet but can understand. Every quality that I am learning in ILC was there w/ Adam on the touch. I can see what I am currently doing is on the correct path, but I have a lot of work to do to get to to even get anywhere near Adam's level of efficacy. My current level in ILC is not clear enough yet for me to maintain anything against his skill set. He felt everything I was doing internally and was able to point out what I need to pay attention to in order to advance my skill.
Is there a difference between ILC and Adam's TC ? Only in how we approach. Adam's curriculum is set in pure traditional Yang Style Classics, and he was able to explain all the qualities in a way that is very tangible and workable. It has all the same qualities at the POC, the pivoting, the stickyness.....etc. I felt no difference at all and it even allowed me to see my current errors and insight.
This was no balance tricks or anything of the like. I have done TCC for over 25 years before going to ILC, and Adam is the only one i have ever touched w/ to manifest this feel in the TCC arena. This feel was the same feel I experienced almost 3 yrs ago when touching w/ Sifu Sam Chin. If anyone has any doubts as to what he is doing, do yourself a favor and get to a workshop. More than enough food for thought for one to start questioning the veracity of their own practice. May will be surprised how far off they are.
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Re: Martial Man - Adam Mizner revisited

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:07 pm

Ban haos daughter died with a spear accident
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Martial Man - Adam Mizner revisited

Postby Trick on Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:34 pm

Bao wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:
Bao wrote:
I’ve never said anything about using a bag for condiotioning, building strength or anything similar.


You said you wanted to see him hit it to prove he could punch.

Bao wrote:Would be nice to see him strike against a bag or against a sturdy kicking protection.


Why demonstrate something that is not part of your training when you're demonstrating your art? It doesn't follow.


I have no idea what you argue about. I didn't say anything about demonstrating something that is not tai chi or that I wanted him to perform boxing or anything like that. Mizner said himself that tai chi has striking. In my tai chi we practice striking, striking using tai chi principles, strikes performed from a perfectly balanced and relaxed structure. So I want to see fully committed strikes to see if his strikes have a certain quality, if they go into the target or if his fist just bounce off. There is nothing non-tai chi in that request.

Just giving you an example of relaxed punching and the difference between how most people strike compared to how a trained method can look like.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2tzGD5riUvY

You can see that the relaxed method penetrates the surface much better. But you really need some kind of surface, opponent or not, to see if the punch is good or not. What is not tai chi testing your relaxed tai chi specific method against a surface? Punching a face not tai chi? :/

If strikes would be necessary then let the aggressor strike himself(by the use of the defenders fist, elbow and so on), that I think would be the "Taiji" way to strike.....The interviewer could of course throw "sturdy kicking pads" and heavy bags at Mizner 8-)
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Re: Martial Man - Adam Mizner revisited

Postby Trick on Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:51 pm

windwalker wrote: correlated to swine muscle tissue

Lead me to think about that scene in Rocky1 where Mr,Balboa goes "berserk" in the slaughter house. Maybe an idea for those who want to hit on "solid" objects but want a more "human" flesh feel in it 8-)
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Re: Martial Man - Adam Mizner revisited

Postby Trick on Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:08 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Ban haos daughter died with a spear accident

No flimsy wushu blades back then
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Re: Martial Man - Adam Mizner revisited

Postby Bao on Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:29 am

charles wrote:...The test, though simple, was an indication of whether or not the teacher knew how to power a strike using "internal" body mechanics. If the teacher resorted to withdrawing the arm, shoulder or drove the strike by cocking the hip, it wasn't "internal".
...
Watch the strikes in the video, above, on Youtube with the speed set to the slowest (.25). In your opinion, does it pass the "Teacher Test"? What powers his strike?


I don’t agree with that narrow definition of “internal” mechanics. There are many different ways, schools and philosophies.

Trick wrote:If strikes would be necessary then let the aggressor strike himself(by the use of the defenders fist, elbow and so on), that I think would be the "Taiji" way to strike.....


Many good knockouts in boxning have happened by one of them more or less walking into the others fist. So yes, timing is obviously the most important component.
...But again, being able to push someone doesn’t mean that you automatically can do some good damage with you fist. If someones says “tai chi have strikes” but has no way to show a good strike or had no method of testing or practice striking, then I would not take him seriously.
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Re: Martial Man - Adam Mizner revisited

Postby Rhen on Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:12 am

would love to see that shady marketing salesman show up at a push hands, or fight event. he never will but will put on fake demos, with students acting, and believe he is "the shit".

Image

No wonder "dumbass videos" featured him.

https://www.facebook.com/dumbassmartialarts/videos/941220089400539
Last edited by Rhen on Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Martial Man - Adam Mizner revisited

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:33 am

He is an excellent litmus
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
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Re: Martial Man - Adam Mizner revisited

Postby charles on Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:53 am

Bao wrote:I don’t agree with that narrow definition of “internal” mechanics. There are many different ways, schools and philosophies.


Fair enough. You've already stated that you believe the demo fits into one of those.
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Re: Martial Man - Adam Mizner revisited

Postby Trick on Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:29 pm

Rhen wrote:would love to see that shady marketing salesman show up at a push hands, or fight event. he never will but will put on fake demos, with students acting, and believe he is "the shit".

Image

No wonder "dumbass videos" featured him.

https://www.facebook.com/dumbassmartialarts/videos/941220089400539

First we are to be iritated because he don't punch heavy bags, and now we are to be upset that he use "Boxing" moves instead of "Taiji" moves....interesting 8-)
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Re: Martial Man - Adam Mizner revisited

Postby Subitai on Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:42 pm

oragami_itto wrote:

now THIS video is why I send Adam $50 a month and not any of you lot


Ok, Oragami_itto... I just want to make a few comments.

1st, I realize that this is a thread about Adam and as such I don't feel I should really come on here to bash him. I mean, I think there is some good stuff there and to each his own. By that I mean, "never take a man's cake from him". I.e. Adam is your cake. Glad I'm not selling my Tai Chi online :P maybe I should???? haha

2nd, That being said, this is a public forum. I want to once again give Adam props for what he does and how he markets himself. He's good at it and I've always said that I definitely see some skill on his part.

- For most teachers I bitch about that they never show the counters to their deadly skills, at least he does( I personally always try to do that)
- Of all the videos I've seen him do...IMO this was one of the best marketing wise.

3rd, my problem with him as always... has been his partners or demo students. Now on this occasion, it's a bit different IMO. It looks more impromptu and perhaps the Demo guy is not one of his main "Jalapeño Pepper" holders. :)

- However, this particular video doesn't just address pushing or sitting from a chair or being attacked by vegetables...

In this video, he covers an ARM DRAG...a typical arm drag that anyone could see pretty much world wide, it is common place. I am referring to the time section between: ( 0:17 sec - 1:18) Now he has my attention and as I said, although he himself has skill...it's the Demo Student that doesn't know what he's doing that is making it easy for Adam to look good.

* For a casual viewer who does not understand the physics of an arm drag it might look impressive... but it's not. An arm drag works on a few combined principles:

1) It's a 2 on 1 situation (literally 2 hands on one arm) thus giving advantage. You can use just one...however 2 is better.
2) It works not just on Muscle, but the with the help of the "simple machine concept of a Lever". I.e. the longer the use the better.
- The Demo Student mostly attacks with his high hand (grabbing under triceps) thus it is too close to Adams center. By doing it that way he Omits added strength of the 2nd hand at the wrist and the mechanical advantage of the LEVER.
- At one point the Demo student is even blocking his own arm drag force, his hands are in the wrong place, facing the wrong direction and allowing Adam to steal to his center. It's just not correct.

Example, if you hold your arm out (even with your chi sunk) and I use one hand and push down on your biceps area (ie high on your arm), I won't be able to move you effectively. However, if I push down from your wrist point whilst I also change the direction of power I can effectively move you with just one hand. How much more effective it is when you know how to use 2 hands combined with proper body linkage and even footwork is remarkable.

I can go through that time stamp literally by the seconds and call out all this stuff, but in any case it makes Adams job that much easier.
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Re: Martial Man - Adam Mizner revisited

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:04 pm

I don't disagree with what you say here
The arm drag is straight out of one of Huangs 2 man exercises
It is called. Swinging arms
I learnt it as a very combatitive exercise with a number of elements to it
Now days it is just done as a rooting and relaxation exercise
So any of his students who do it have an ingrained way of doing it
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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