Martial Man - Adam Mizner revisited

[RobP3]

I'm not sure I understand the question... what do you mean? And why are you so concerned with how much contact with the ground?

Let me put is this way. When you see CXW or one of those guys demo something they are always in a very planted stance and you can see the power come up from the ground. How does that work from a "normal" stance or on the move?

[jaime_g]

Let me put is this way. When you see CXW or one of those guys demo something they are always in a very planted stance and you can see the power come up from the ground. How does that work from a "normal" stance or on the move?

It should work in the same way. Standing, moving, or doing groundwork.

[origami_itto]

some must've watched a different clip,,,ya think

All I can think of, you can see him hitting Kieran, just not knocking him out. Which is good for everyone. I don't need to see him put a hole in somebody to understand the power behind the strikes. I can feel it myself any time I want to hit something.

I don't think you're ever going to see Mizner with a bag or gloves. Generally HME folks hit people.

No need for bag or gloves, just hit someone. It's not about "li" or "stupid power" or any of the other derogatory terms that some TCC guys use to dodge the issue. I've been told to my face before by a tap-tap artist "If I hit you for real, I might kill you". I took the chance, I'm still here. It's a cop out. If you don't have the skill to grade your strikes with a training partner then what sort of training are you doing? Do people seriously believe if they play tap-tap all the time that when they hit for real they will explode someone's organs?

No but when I hit people I stun them, knock them out, and raise huge bruises. It works for me. Your results may vary.

On one of those arcade punching machines you should never hit because it can break your wrist, I score around 800, usually, with a straight punch. Whatever that means.

When I hit a person, I don't just throw out dozens of shots and hope to hit SOMETHING. I get them under control and then hit what I want to hit.

[origami_itto]

My question with the" power from the ground" is what if your connection is broken or what if you aren't working from a stable surface? Can power be delivered on the fly?

Adam touches on this in the interviews when answering the question "Does the power come from structure?" and in part two "Is the meaning of Zhong Ding centerline?"

Essentially, structure and ground connection are necessary for training, but once trained effective movement is not bound by it. Structure and ground are like training wheels for the real thing.

[Trick]

For tai chi it’s about showing that you can use your tai chi principles to do some real damage and not just push around people. You don’t need to hurt someone, but you need to learn how to use your skills for finishing methods.

For a Tai Chi punch, it’s not necessary to use any brute force or even tense up upon impact. If you can not generate a good amount of force from softness and stillness, your tai chi is not completely fit to fight with. Not many can. Most people who have no specific training will tense up. Working with speed and acceleration is not what they have practiced, so many will forget to relax when they try to deliver a good punch.


And the aikidokas believe that they will break wrists and bones if they don’t throw themselves... There are always excuses for not performing for real...

I don't understand all this(but then there are loads of things I don't understand)showing one has real damaging power when not in an serious confrontation, how to show that on an somewhat compliant practice/demo partner that also might be an good friend? To go tap-tap or semi-contact or even all out damaging full-contact show nothing of pure reality ability. To go for damaging punches in such setting would just show quite a low caracter.........About the Taiji punching you describe works the same for any good puncher not matter what style, nothing specific to Taijiquan........... And the other of yours dislike MA's Aikido(the other is Boxing if I remember correct?) I take it you have not studied that for any length of time under some of the very qualified and skilled instructors that can be found in Sweden? If you do have then I'd say you did not pay attention during classes.

[RobP3]

Showing good strikes doesn't involve damage at all when done correctly. We manage it all the time! The flip side is that people learn to manage impact too, it's a win-win.

[marvin8]

My question with the" power from the ground" is what if your connection is broken or what if you aren't working from a stable surface? Can power be delivered on the fly?

Adam touches on this in the interviews when answering the question "Does the power come from structure?" and in part two "Is the meaning of Zhong Ding centerline?"

Essentially, structure and ground connection are necessary for training, but once trained effective movement is not bound by it. Structure and ground are like training wheels for the real thing.

Yes, at 16:17, Adam answers the question, then demonstrates it:

However in the beginning for many years, your song will be dependent on your structure. So, no. The power does not come from the structure. But, the structure is the condition to create song. Then, the power comes from the song. Later, it is easier to be in broken structure and be able to make power from any angle. . . . You must be able to generate power at any time.

A couple more videos on the subject.

Discover Taiji
Published on Sep 10, 2017

Don't brace, just song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX4ckfbZYgA

Lan Tran
Published on Oct 21, 2015

This video is trying to demonstrate the effects of bracing against an opponent's force. Instead just relax and maintain one's own internal balance of Yin/Yang and the opponents force cannot land onto the structure. Done properly, it is totally effortless no matter how much the opponent tries to come in with:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5o0hUCTw5Q

[GrahamB]

I'm not sure I understand the question... what do you mean? And why are you so concerned with how much contact with the ground?

Let me put is this way. When you see CXW or one of those guys demo something they are always in a very planted stance and you can see the power come up from the ground. How does that work from a "normal" stance or on the move?

Honesty, I don't know when it comes to the Chen guys - the only one I've seen do anything that resembled something freeform is Chen Bing who does a wrestling push hands with anybody that wants to. So when it comes to CXW, who knows?

But I think the larger question of the width of stance should be largely irrelevant for any internal martial art, since you tend to use a single leg to channel power to the ground or back up.

[Trick]

Showing good strikes doesn't involve damage at all when done correctly. We manage it all the time! The flip side is that people learn to manage impact too, it's a win-win.

There are strikes that doesn't do surface damage but internal damage, there are strikes(almost a tap)where the stricken drops on the spot and absolutely no bruise or pain involved, but these are very difficult execute on people that are in full fighting mood. Yes managing impact, there are exercises in Okinawan Karate where during certain practice the practitioner takes "heavy" strikes upon his body, I don't know if it is to develop a strike managing body?.....anyway that won't help against a well timed punch landing on the jaw

[Giles]

........................................
“But... that felt like nothing.” and “But I didn’t do anything.” They are always surprised that when they do something correct it feels just like they did nothing. The less you feel, the less the momentum and movements get stuck inside your own body. .............
So this is why you need special training, to get rid of this need to feel your strength and perform something fast, with good acceleration and yet be able to completely relax and trust your own body. It takes time. .......

The highlighted quotes are classics , also in the sense that I sometimes hear exactly the same from my students when a technique or a partner exercise move gels in the right way. If the successful technique has been executed on me, a few have even accused me of suddenly taking a dive for them (after not doing so several times before). At which point I've had to assure them that nowadays I'm just a little too old to keep throwing myself on the floor for no good reason.

[LaoDan]

I'm not sure I understand the question... what do you mean? And why are you so concerned with how much contact with the ground?

Let me put is this way. When you see CXW or one of those guys demo something they are always in a very planted stance and you can see the power come up from the ground. How does that work from a "normal" stance or on the move?

During his first trip to the USA (c. 1988) CXW was asked about fajin while he was in his hotel room, sitting on the bed, without his massive legs touching the floor (we had gone to dinner together and he wore shorts rather than his silks, so it was easy to see the muscle development in his legs). He demonstrated fajin without standing up. While it was only “in the air” rather than against a target, it seemed pretty impressive at the time (though those watching probably lacked the skill and understanding at that time to be qualified to judge the quality). Regardless, the point is that he did not feel the need to have his feet on the ground in order to do his demonstration of fajin.

[Bao]

I don't understand all this(but then there are loads of things I don't understand)showing one has real damaging power when not in an serious confrontation, how to show that on an somewhat compliant practice/demo partner that also might be an good friend?

My favourite method is to just hold up (hug) a sturdy kicking protection and let the other one punch. IME this is much better than work against a bag. The partner who holds the protection can tell the puncher when the strikes felt most powerful. And then if it hurts very good right through protection, you can tell quite easy if the punch have good power or not.

--About the Taiji punching you describe works the same for any good puncher not matter what style, nothing specific to Taijiquan...........

I am sure you are correct. I didn't say anything about how things work or not work in other styles, only what I believe, IME, works from a Tai Chi perspective. There are some things though, like that Tai Chi people usually don't like to sacrifice their balance while others maybe more throwing their whole body weight without caring too much about losing their balance. But in large, it should be very much the same. I agree. But again, I have never heard any karate or boxer say that you should relax all the way into the strike. Karatekas usually say that you should harden the impact on impact. The boxers I've heard say that you should suddenly squeeze the hand upon impact, however some of them say that you should still stay as relaxed as possible.

And the other of yours dislike MA's Aikido(the other is Boxing if I remember correct?)

I don't dislike these arts. I dislike crappy MA period. 98% of all MA is crap, regardless style. For Tai Chi it seems like it's more than 99.8% crap. So from that perspective, Tai Chi in general seems to be worse than MA in general.

If the successful technique has been executed on me, a few have even accused me of suddenly taking a dive for them (after not doing so several times before). At which point I've had to assure them that nowadays I'm just a little too old to keep throwing myself on the floor for no good reason.

I remember something from my teachers class, an elderly woman totally convinced that my teacher faked his reaction to make her happy. Yes it's a funny thing.

[windwalker]

........................................
“But... that felt like nothing.” and “But I didn’t do anything.” They are always surprised that when they do something correct it feels just like they did nothing. The less you feel, the less the momentum and movements get stuck inside your own body. .............
So this is why you need special training, to get rid of this need to feel your strength and perform something fast, with good acceleration and yet be able to completely relax and trust your own body. It takes time. .......

The highlighted quotes are classics , also in the sense that I sometimes hear exactly the same from my students when a technique or a partner exercise move gels in the right way. If the successful technique has been executed on me, a few have even accused me of suddenly taking a dive for them (after not doing so several times before). At which point I've had to assure them that nowadays I'm just a little too old to keep throwing myself on the floor for no good reason.

Echo that

In China, those working with me would react from what I did to them after coaching me on the how, what...the why was left up to me to figure out.
Often wondered if they were faking the reactioins dispite reacting the same way when they demoed on me.

Yrs later my own students would echo my words in our interactions causing me to smile understanding their skepticism.
I often have others just coming into the group or visitors interact with them so they can see what happens really happens when they meet the right conditions.

I attribute this to the way the energy is transmitted, its not a push as some seem to think or comment on....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7_zmuBweHI

It was covered in the clip, and has been repeated a couple of times here. Its very anti intuitive, in many cases going against long ingrained patterns of energy delivery which hitting bags, and other things only reinforces...Just depends on what one is trying to develop.

Not in to arguing about only sharing some thoughts and my view point.

[origami_itto]

I attribute this to the way the energy is transmitted, its not a push as some seem to think or comment on....It was covered in the clip, and has been repeated a couple of times here. Its very anti intuitive, in many cases going against long ingrained patterns of energy delivery which hitting bags, and other things only reinforces...Just depends on what one is trying to develop.

Not in to arguing about only sharing some thoughts and my view point.

That's definitely part of what I was implying earlier. hitting heavy bags is the wrong kind of conditioning for the kind of Taijiquan I'm personally attempting to cultivate.

[Bao]

That's definitely part of what I was implying earlier. hitting heavy bags is the wrong kind of conditioning for the kind of Taijiquan I'm personally attempting to cultivate.

I’ve never said anything about using a bag for condiotioning, building strength or anything similar.