Martial Man - Adam Mizner revisited

[RobP3]

That's definitely part of what I was implying earlier. hitting heavy bags is the wrong kind of conditioning for the kind of Taijiquan I'm personally attempting to cultivate.

I’ve never said anything about using a bag for condiotioning, building strength or anything similar.

Me neither, I can't remember the last time I hit a bag. Always best to work with people. Air doesn't give the same feedback

[middleway]

I think there is room for both approaches depending on goal.

If i want a work out i will rumble a heavy bag for a few rounds. If i want feedback and to refine my method i will hit a partner.

[origami_itto]

That's definitely part of what I was implying earlier. hitting heavy bags is the wrong kind of conditioning for the kind of Taijiquan I'm personally attempting to cultivate.

I’ve never said anything about using a bag for condiotioning, building strength or anything similar.

You said you wanted to see him hit it to prove he could punch.

Would be nice to see him strike against a bag or against a sturdy kicking protection.

Why demonstrate something that is not part of your training when you're demonstrating your art? It doesn't follow. If you don't use a heavy bag, why would you have one laying around to use for a demo? I don't know how it is overseas, but here in the states hanging a bag in your gym immediately skyrockets your insurance. For so many reasons, it's just a non-starter of an idea which just so happens also to be pointless.

[Bao]

I’ve never said anything about using a bag for condiotioning, building strength or anything similar.

You said you wanted to see him hit it to prove he could punch.

Would be nice to see him strike against a bag or against a sturdy kicking protection.

Why demonstrate something that is not part of your training when you're demonstrating your art? It doesn't follow.

I have no idea what you argue about. I didn't say anything about demonstrating something that is not tai chi or that I wanted him to perform boxing or anything like that. Mizner said himself that tai chi has striking. In my tai chi we practice striking, striking using tai chi principles, strikes performed from a perfectly balanced and relaxed structure. So I want to see fully committed strikes to see if his strikes have a certain quality, if they go into the target or if his fist just bounce off. There is nothing non-tai chi in that request.

Just giving you an example of relaxed punching and the difference between how most people strike compared to how a trained method can look like.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2tzGD5riUvY

You can see that the relaxed method penetrates the surface much better. But you really need some kind of surface, opponent or not, to see if the punch is good or not. What is not tai chi testing your relaxed tai chi specific method against a surface? Punching a face not tai chi?

[origami_itto]

You keep moving your position Bao.

You said you wanted him to punch a bag. I explained in several ways why that's not likely.

I was satisfied with the strikes he showed in the video. I know how to make them harder if o need to.

[Bao]

You said you wanted him to punch a bag. I explained in several ways why that's not likely.

You spoke about conditioning which is something I never addressed.
What i think you said is that you believe that you can not use tai chi principles against a somewhat solid surface...

I was satisfied with the strikes he showed in the video

.

I saw nothing I would call a strike. I saw him demo and explain where you can strike. I saw no striking. I guess we have different views on what makes a strike a strike...

I know how to make them harder if o need to.

How can you know when you are so afraid to test it? A body is also a solid object.

[origami_itto]

Tell me what you saw and I'll tell you what you missed

[Bao]

I found a video with a somewhat brief explanation of mechanics with a demonstration.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCRe9q50XYA

The mechanics are pretty good. Focused, stable, a direct connection from foot to hand through the center. Yet there is to tell if he can do something more than push someone away, something that probably needs to be felt first hand. I think he probably could. It just needs to be speed up, more acceleration and that fist could hurt.

If he explained it in a similar way in the interview I would be satisfied. But there he still speak more about pushing and qi and not very much about mechanics for striking.

But I suppose that oragami_itto will object to everything i write here just for some more fun...

[lineofintent]

the person striking uses a phoenix eye fist, anyone can do this by poking with chisel index phoenix eye fist, its hurts like anything and anyone will fly away.

It is not what this person says it is.

[Subitai]

I was gonna just remain lurking but Bao posted this:

Just giving you an example of relaxed punching and the difference between how most people strike compared to how a trained method can look like.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2tzGD5riUvY

Tai Chi punch was discussed Here this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26059&p=442889&hilit=Tight+fist&sid=571c0a244d27158bc2148550b490bf5d#p442889

Now as for that YT link that Bao put up of the "Admitted Newbie" punching: My only problem with that is he might as well go into WWE wrestling. On purpose, the TIGHTEND (Not Relaxed) higher shoulder...I get the feeling he's just trying to demonstrate the "POOF" of the air coming out the bag.

For his relaxed punch, That is punching basics, to be relaxed so that your energy go through to the target. I don't even need to bring out posts from "Rec.martial arts" 20 yrs ago where we used to discuss this.

-the way he did it from the side like that...is how our "Strike the tiger" posture Is in our Yang style.

=======================================================

Lastly and what is also very important IMO, is how the hand is shaped and what kind of tension or lack of it is needed. Punches must make contact...

[windwalker]

A body is also a solid object.

An interesting statement depending on how one looks at the body also determines the training for how one interacts with it


"As we have pointed out, the human body is a composite object, and thus contains different states of matter at the same time. It can react to forces like a solid or a liquid/gas filled solid membrane depending on which part of the body is reacting.to the outside force. If you absolutely had no choice but to pick only ONE state, I would probably go with solid, since that's how most people perceive and interact with it - but it's a really simple way of answering the question."

Looking like something is not the same as having the characteristics of something.

"Ballistic gelatin is a testing medium scientifically correlated to swine muscle tissue (which in turn is comparable to human muscle tissue), in which the effects of bullet wounds can be simulated. It was developed and improved by Martin Fackler and others in the field of wound ballistics.[1][2][3] Ballistic gelatin is a solution of gelatin powder in water. Ballistic gelatin closely simulates the density and viscosity of human and animal muscle tissue, and is used as a standardized medium for testing the terminal performance of firearms ammunition. "http://www.businessinsider.com/gunshot-through-gelatin-simulates-wound-2016-1

[charles]

I found a video with a somewhat brief explanation of mechanics with a demonstration.



The mechanics are pretty good.

Interesting.

Back in the 1990's Mike Sigman proposed the "Teacher Test". It was a simple test intended to be a "go/no-go" gauge if someone was in the ball park. Simply, the test involved having the "teacher" place his hand on the student's chest (or side of upper arm) and then punch the student without withdrawing the arm, shoulder or hip to "cock" the punch. A "zero-inch" punch with no wind-up or withdrawal. The test, though simple, was an indication of whether or not the teacher knew how to power a strike using "internal" body mechanics. If the teacher resorted to withdrawing the arm, shoulder or drove the strike by cocking the hip, it wasn't "internal".

The test wasn't intended to peg a practitioners skill level, simply whether or not he or she used "internal" body mechanics to power the strike.

Watch the strikes in the video, above, on Youtube with the speed set to the slowest (.25). In your opinion, does it pass the "Teacher Test"? What powers his strike?

[wayne hansen]

I don't have slomo on my I pad
Is he changing to Phoenix eye in the demo

[origami_itto]

I found a video with a somewhat brief explanation of mechanics with a demonstration.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCRe9q50XYA

The mechanics are pretty good. Focused, stable, a direct connection from foot to hand through the center. Yet there is to tell if he can do something more than push someone away, something that probably needs to be felt first hand. I think he probably could. It just needs to be speed up, more acceleration and that fist could hurt.

If he explained it in a similar way in the interview I would be satisfied. But there he still speak more about pushing and qi and not very much about mechanics for striking.

But I suppose that oragami_itto will object to everything i write here just for some more fun...

HAHA.

What I'm saying earlier is that you're just not seeing the strikes. They're quick, solid, not that powerful, but he throws a good half dozen or so into Kieran during the course of the demo. They're similar to the strikes shown interspersed with his form here. Not trying to kill anybody, just making enough contact to know contact is made. Somebody did leave some timestamps.



Honestly, striking is mostly dumb in a fight.
1) If you don't have control of the opponent and a clear shot, it's wasted energy
2) Your hands are weaker than most targets like skulls
3) Every bit of force you put into the opponent also comes back into you.

Why not use taiji? Blend with the opponent's mass/force and send it into itself against itself, or into something harder and less than your fist. It's much easier to get much more damage that way.

People forget that Yang Banhou killed his own daughter in a training accident. This shit is no joke. Learning control is far more important than looking for power. The power comes.

[windwalker]

Yes the way and how he does it is quite different.

1 way is to be a conductor of force the other way is to be the generator of force.

It's different.