Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

[Trick]

The talk of powerful fa-jin and "finishing moves" is fine but, as I mentioned before on another thread, look at who people like Adam or Goodson are teaching. For the most part, nice/ elderly folk who enjoy seeing their teacher push someone away as a demo. So is their art "fit for purpose"? For them I would suggest it is

Those are 98% of people who are interested. Why take away a part of the system just because people want to practice it for health? What about those who wants to learn a complete original system? In Yoga for instance, they call different schools different things, os it's quite easy to know what level of depth you'll get. But the marketing for Tai chi is IMHO mostly dishonest.

You are into marketing? and have been doing Taiji for a long time so you are in a good position to promote that part of Taijiquan,

I do marketing for a living and I've studied Tai Chi for 30 years. I only teach Tai Chi to people who wants the whole package, i.e. wants to practice it as a martial art. So I haven't had many students. I get too bored teaching it for health only. If I can't have fun, the people who I teach won't have fun either.

but maybe unfortunately most people nowadays will only believe it "works" if hey se it in some kind of UFC format competition so you have to take it into the arena of sports which I believe you don't like

I don't care what people believe or what their measurements are. The practitioner must be honest with himself, that's the only thing that is important. Can I fight? Can I use my Tai Chi? What do I need to be able to use it? You must first practice Tai Chi and try to learn how to use it. What have UFC matches have to do with anything?

If it's a 98% healt Taiji market out there then that's the main road Taiji will take I don't think that's too bad, the combat side of Taijiquan is anyway there "within" to be discovered for those who seek it and those who sincerely seek for it will eventually find their right teacher......About entering competition(which I'm not a fan of but accept its around)such as kickboxing/wrestling and MMA is what seem to be the litmus test to "prove" a MA works, so it seem that if Taijiquan is to be "reality" proven it has to enter such events, but then by some it will be called kickboxing/wrestling and not real Taiji because the rule set and referee's and so on prevents the full potential of Taijiquan to be used.......I believe the old ladies and gent's in the park doing "healt" Taiji has it right, I mean right mind set, they are happy with what they are doing and are not bothered at all if others are doing it for other reasons

[Bao]

the combat side of Taijiquan is anyway there "within" to be discovered for those who seek it and those who sincerely seek for it will eventually find their right teacher......

Yes, sadly there are not many, but there are people like me who focus and teach Tai Chi with focus on the martial art.

The jibengong, forms, drills, jibengong etc are solo practice for the health part just as much as it’s foundation practice for the martial art. Those who seek Tai Chi for health will find much more exercises, better and more powerful health practice in the Tai Chi that has not been bastardized into a lighter, pure McHealth version. IMHO

[Giles]

Those who seek Tai Chi for health will find much more exercises, better and more powerful health practice in the Tai Chi that has not been bastardized into a lighter, pure McHealth version. IMHO

This remark, in various forms, has been made many times before but it's always worth repeating.
And that not only goes for the body, but for the mind too.

--------->> Unless you use Tai Chi as a vehicle for the ego and for domination and deceit. Tai chi can be 'good' for that as well, if that's the path you take...

[RobP3]

[.I believe the old ladies and gent's in the park doing "healt" Taiji has it right, I mean right mind set, they are happy with what they are doing and are not bothered at all if others are doing it for other reasons

I agree, but there is this curious other subset in the Taiji world which straddles health, martial art and "spiritual" and this is where the "true guru" can make his mark

[wayne hansen]

Tai chi is tai chi
There is no health
Spiritual
Martial
It is just tai chi or falling short of the mark

[Bao]

Tai chi is tai chi
There is no health
Spiritual
Martial
It is just tai chi or falling short of the mark

Exactly. Short bastardized McHealth variations fall short of every aspect; health, spiritual and martial.
Either you have the whole package or you have nothing. (At its best, Tai Chi is turned into simple qigong.)

[origami_itto]

Tai chi is tai chi
There is no health
Spiritual
Martial
It is just tai chi or falling short of the mark

Exactly. Short bastardized McHealth variations fall short of every aspect; health, spiritual and martial.
Either you have the whole package or you have nothing. (At its best, Tai Chi is turned into simple qigong.)

I think we all agree on more than we like to admit.

[Bao]

I think we all agree on more than we like to admit.

No we don’t.

[willie]

I think we all agree on more than we like to admit.

No we don’t.

I'll echo that.
I was thinking about my prior post. perhaps I'm appearing to be to hard on some subjects.
Sending someone flying away with a push would work well in a situation where environmental weapons could be taken
advantage of. Sending someone flying over a chair, tables, or into a tree would work well.
However, In my experience, What you train to do Is what you will most likely do. So if the majority of the training is
just finding a way to bounce someone out, Then that's all you will have and if the situation doesn't have environmental
weapons,then what?

[windwalker]

The point is that they send themselves flying out they themselves bounce out. It's a natural reaction to what they feel. What one does with this natural reaction is a matter of course.

That in itself is another type of training the first part is being able to produce the reaction consistently.

Whatever one deems taiji to be or not to be. If it's the way one makes a living it must be a viable business model.
This has been historically the case and is the case in today's time with the same arguments by Past Masters and practitioners about what it was doing to the art

[Interloper]

The real prize is finding a practitioner who can properly absorb an opponent's/partner's force to the ground, return it augmented with his own internally generated force, and direct it through the partner's structure so that it compresses the joints and captures the center of mass.

Then, the partner truly is propelled involuntarily backward, and it is not the partner's own action responding to a sensation.

That's the difference between "mind games" and the actual mechanical effect of a unified body when a person with a non-unified (sequentially moving) body makes contact with it.

[origami_itto]

Taiji in its proper expression should result in total control over the opponent. Bounce them away, keep them stuck, knock em down, make em sit down, whatever. You are in charge, they are not.
What you do with that control is your own business.

[windwalker]

The real prize is finding a practitioner who can properly absorb an opponent's/partner's force to the ground, return it augmented with his own internally generated force, and direct it through the partner's structure so that it compresses the joints and captures the center of mass.

Then, the partner truly is propelled involuntarily backward, and it is not the partner's own action responding to a sensation.

Do you mean like the sensation of what you've outlined....you do understand that one can only feel their own force ?


That's the difference between "mind games" and the actual mechanical effect of a unified body when a person with a non-unified (sequentially moving) body makes contact with it.

The test for what you've outlined is to cause an inanimate object to behave in the same way with the forces as you've outlined applied

That might be one way, but its a very slow way....also not at the same time nor does it explain what is often seen and demoed which is why its often questioned to begin with.

might try looking up whats called "restoring force" .

[taiwandeutscher]

Additional info:
The heavy German Judo guy is also a PHs expert, out of the German CXW camp, even a trainer of a German national PHs team!

Like it very much when info as this chimes in after a long discussion

Very sorry, but in Taiwan, I sleep, when you post, and the New Years festivities keep us busy!
Happy Earth Dog!

[windwalker]

Tai chi is tai chi
There is no health
Spiritual
Martial
It is just tai chi or falling short of the mark

Exactly. Short bastardized McHealth variations fall short of every aspect; health, spiritual and martial.
Either you have the whole package or you have nothing. (At its best, Tai Chi is turned into simple qigong.)

"For the martial arts to succeed in the 20th century they would need to transition. They had to be made appealing to increasingly educated and modern middle-class individuals living in urban areas. It would be hard to imagine a group more different from the rural farm youths that had traditionally practiced these arts. But this is the task that the early martial reformers of the 20th century dedicated themselves too."
https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/ ... ts-part-i/

Tried teaching comericaly at one time,couldn't get around changing what I did to meet the market,
nor was I into promoting myself. My teacher prefered anonymity to being public.

Enjoy the practice for itself and sharing it with those
interested in it,,,,

dont quite get the point of talking about what one does not do or practice
presumably all have their own reasons for their practices...