Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby Fa Xing on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:03 am

Aqui wrote:Alright,
with all the speculation about Adam Mizner's material I thought I post a video showing Adam's top student Andy Mack doing free Push Hands with German Judoka Herbert Arndt.




Now I know that people will start with "Herbert Arndt has no skill..." but Herbert Arndt is a German National Judo Champion, European Judo Champion and won third place in the Judo World Championship starting in the 100+ kg division.

I am really curious how you guys here rate Andy's performance!!!

Best Aqui


Honestly, I'd like to know the rule set for this "free push hands," from what I gather by looking at a 33 second clip is that they are to just push each other around. The judoka does not attempt any throw, and in only last the few seconds begins some standing grappling. So there is nothing to really judge here. I have done Free-Style Push Hands both training and competition where throws/takedowns and standing grappling are allowed, this was not it as far as I can tell from the video.
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby RobP3 on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:05 am

oragami_itto wrote:As long as we're talking Mizner again, what do y'all think of this



I'd like to see him with the big guy in the other video
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:07 am

RobP3 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:As long as we're talking Mizner again, what do y'all think of this



I'd like to see him with the big guy in the other video


This one is a Drill, not a competition.
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby RobP3 on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:09 am

oragami_itto wrote:
RobP3 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:As long as we're talking Mizner again, what do y'all think of this

/quote]

I'd like to see him with the big guy in the other video


This one is a Drill, not a competition.


Fair enough. Can it be used in competition?
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby Bao on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:13 am

oragami_itto wrote:As long as we're talking Mizner again, what do y'all think of this



I wonder why they are inside. Looking at the windows, it seems to be a very nice weather outside...
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby Fa Xing on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:20 am

marvin8 wrote:Here's another Mizner student.

Discover Taiji
Published on Nov 30, 2016

Heaven Man Earth Instructor Ramzi Nabulsi playing push hands in Malaysia - with JK Yeo, Victor Yen, Tiger Tan, Pang Chan Ming and others.

Ramzi Nabulsi is a senior disciple of Sifu Adam Mizner, he is a Silver in blue belt openweight division in the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Mixed Martial Arts Federation of Jordan tournament, as well as a Gold in the MMA heavyweight championship at the FIOGA world mixed martial arts competition.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mumtIjeQ_w


I like this video, but note he cross-trains which is clearly obvious in the video, and a big difference from what I've seen of most Mizner students, and Mizner himself.
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:36 am

RobP3 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:As long as we're talking Mizner again, what do y'all think of this



I'd like to see him with the big guy in the other video

oragami_itto wrote:This one is a Drill, not a competition.


Fair enough. Can it be used in competition?


I've pulled it off in free push hands against lesser skilled players. Higher skilled folks can respond properly and yield/neutralize in return unless you catch them just right, i.e. a moment when their skill is lesser.

It's just t'i-fang, a fundamental skill of authentic taijiquan. Which is why I'm interested to see what others here think of it.
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby Giles on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:56 am

middleway wrote:
BUT it still works under pressure!!!


Can you explain to me the goal then please? If this is a demonstration that 'it works', i think we need to understand what the goal is.

From my POV Arndt didnt look particularly off balance at any point, just had to step, but of course thats not really a problem at all for any fighter, wrestler or grappler. If the Goal is to make the partner step, ok, but Andy Mac steps multiple times to shove or gain angle.


This was at the Hannover "Push-Hands Meeting” a year or two ago, when Adam Mizner taught one of the morning seminars (there are always 3 or 4 teachers working in parallel in the mornings). This video was shot during one of the afternoon “free pushing/free exchange” sessions. There isn’t a formal rule set, but instead some etiquette rules about practicing together in a spirit of exchange, both partners agreeing beforehand on the same parameters, goals or whatever. That doesn’t always happen, some people will say “Oh, let’s just push” but personally I find practice/exchange more productive and fun if it’s clear what level we actually want to focus on. Things like sweeps, locks and also throws are basically ruled out, but in practice this doesn’t preclude people having something of tussle together as long as it’s on the basis of “consenting adults”. Sometimes there is an area of the big room or an extra room where people who want to do moving step. The nature of the exchange also depends naturally on the mindset of the people in question: sometimes it’s fairly ‘quiet’ (which doesn’t have to mean the same as boring ;) ), sometimes people like to include more martial techniques but still definitely as partners practicing together, and sometimes you see teeth being gritted and no more smiles. In this case, whatever their feelings, the protagonists took up more space in the room than usual.
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby charles on Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:02 pm

oragami_itto wrote:It's just t'i-fang, a fundamental skill of authentic taijiquan. Which is why I'm interested to see what others here think of it.



For whatever it's worth:

http://www.fairtradetaichi.org/news/201 ... ed-ti-fang

and



Given that the title of Mr. Mizner's video is "Hua and Fa", and he never mentions Ti Fang ... not sure why you would interpret what he is doing as that.
Last edited by charles on Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:13 pm

charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:It's just t'i-fang, a fundamental skill of authentic taijiquan. Which is why I'm interested to see what others here think of it.



For whatever it's worth:

http://www.fairtradetaichi.org/news/201 ... ed-ti-fang

and



Given that the title of Mr. Mizner's video is "Hua and Fa", and he never mentions Ti Fang ... not sure why you would interpret what he is doing as that.


T'i-fang, according to Cheng Man Ching, not whoever this Stephen Goodson guy is, is hua and fa. Ref Treatise Seven: Strength and Physics in Cheng Tzu's 13 Chapters (p48-49 in the Ben Lo translation).
Sifu Mizner is demonstrating hwa and fa in the context of the seven point push drill. Functionally this is t'i-fang, but not being described as such.

Cheng Man Ching wrote:There are times, however, when a force comes from the
front causing one side of the triangle to collapse. What
then would be the result? It is illustrated in the follow-
ing diagram. As shown here when the force comes di-
rectly from the front and without
deviating to the sides or up or down,
we no longer talk about turning left
or right or cycling up or down as the
way to yield. We talk only about
receiving the attack. In T' ai Chi
Ch'uan, we use the opponent's strong
attack against him - which is what the Book oj Changes
describes as K'an, the trigram of "the Abyss" and the
hexagram of danger. This is the primary reason to use
the term "T'ai Chi" to name this martial art, for it
means to cause the attacking force to dissolve in empti-
ness. When the opponent realizes that he has failed, his
only option is to withdraw and try to escape. During the
opponent's withdrawal of his attacking force, my abdo-
men, which has absorbed and stored the force of his at-
tack, uses this power to attack his retreat. This response
is what the Classics refer to as t'i-fang. Fang means to
release. I then become a circle again. The opponent will
be at a loss as to what he can do and is thrown out a
great distance. This fa-chin (releasing strength) is a
unique characteristic of T'ai Chi Ch'uan.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:01 pm

No one in these clips should feel any pride
Even when the pushing is not bad the acting of the dummy shows a level of deception
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby Bao on Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:08 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:It's just t'i-fang, a fundamental skill of authentic taijiquan. Which is why I'm interested to see what others here think of it.


Given that the title of Mr. Mizner's video is "Hua and Fa", and he never mentions Ti Fang ... not sure why you would interpret what he is doing as that.


T'i-fang, according to Cheng Man Ching, not whoever this Stephen Goodson guy is, is hua and fa. Ref Treatise Seven: Strength and Physics in Cheng Tzu's 13 Chapters (p48-49 in the Ben Lo translation).
Sifu Mizner is demonstrating hwa and fa in the context of the seven point push drill. Functionally this is t'i-fang, but not being described as such.


I do agree with that you can use "hua" to lift. But I don't agree that Mizner's vid is a demonstration of what Zheng Manqing calls tifang. Mizner direct and return the force directly into the student's line of attack mostly without "ti" or "lift".

Tifang means that you let your opponent float and then you hook in to his movement using fajin. It can be fast and direct, but the opponent must be uprooted first, made to float.

If you watch here about 3.03 in this vid, https://youtu.be/fSYPOhSgiis?t=183, you can see that Zheng follows his opponent's force and yields downwards a little (hua). Well timed this makes the inexperienced PH practitioner to loose his balance forward, his heel lifts from the ground. So he lifts himself (ti) up on his toes. Now it's very easy to place or displace (fang) the opponent, preferably by "fa" /using fajing.

wayne hansen wrote:No one in these clips should feel any pride
Even when the pushing is not bad the acting of the dummy shows a level of deception


8-)
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:22 pm

Bao wrote:
I do agree with that you can use "hua" to lift. But I don't agree that Mizner's vid is a demonstration of what Zheng Manqing calls tifang. Mizner direct and return the force directly into the student's line of attack mostly without "ti" or "lift".

Tifang means that you let your opponent float and then you hook in to his movement using fajin. It can be fast and direct, but the opponent must be uprooted first, made to float.

If you watch here about 3.03 in this vid, https://youtu.be/fSYPOhSgiis?t=183, you can see that Zheng follows his opponent's force and yields downwards a little (hua). Well timed this makes the inexperienced PH practitioner to loose his balance forward, his heel lifts from the ground. So he lifts himself (ti) up on his toes. Now it's very easy to place or displace (fang) the opponent, preferably by "fa" /using fajing.

wayne hansen wrote:No one in these clips should feel any pride
Even when the pushing is not bad the acting of the dummy shows a level of deception


8-)

Why did he not describe it as "lifting". Why did he describe it as a response to incoming force that can't be turned away?

The drill Goodson describes and what you're describing I learned (similar to at least) within the CMC line as uprooting. You don't need to come at me to have your root severed. You can be rooting, yielding, moving towards or away and I can uproot you, it doesn't matter. T'i-fang, specifically is neutralizing then releasing, uprooting may or may not happen, too. if you don't like them, then probably not.

I believe there is confusion between T'i-Fang and T'i Chin. I quoted his description of T'i Fang earlier. Here's his description of t'i chin.
Cheng Man Ching wrote:13 chapters, chapter 7, p 54 in ben lo
T'ai Chi Ch'uan is also excellent in its application of
t'i chin (uprooting strength). Uprooting can cause an op-
ponent's feet to leave the ground, resulting in his fall.
The Classics say, "By alternating the force of pulling and
pushing, the root is severed and the object is quickly
toppled without a doubt." The application of leverage is
similar to that of a jack or crane. It is like the following
diagram. If the distance between the point of applied
force and the fulcrum is longer, then
we need to use less force to obtain a
greater result efficiently. When we use
t'i chin and fa chin, the opponent be-
comes the center of gravity, our hands
and wrists touching the opponent be-
come the fulcrum, and our foot and leg become the
point of applied force.


As usual. though, the conversation is focusing on the wrong aspect, semantics, and missing the meat. What do you make of the skill and can you replicate it?
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:24 pm

wayne hansen wrote:No one in these clips should feel any pride
Even when the pushing is not bad the acting of the dummy shows a level of deception


I thank you sincerely for sharing your perspective.
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby Bao on Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:53 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Why did he not describe it as "lifting".


Ti means "lift". The force of attack is absorbed in such way that the opponent loses his root. This is lifting.

During the opponent's withdrawal of his attacking force, my abdo-
men, which has absorbed and stored the force of his at-
tack
, uses this power to attack his retreat. This response
is what the Classics refer to as t'i-fang. Fang means to
release.


I don't remember which one, but there is a book co-written with Zheng and R.W. Smith that has a whole chapter on Ti Fang, with pictures and descriptions. It becomes very clear what Zheng means and how he teaches it.

As usual. though, the conversation is focusing on the wrong aspect, semantics, and missing the meat. What do you make of the skill and can you replicate it?


The raw "meat" ingredient is how you practice and develop a skill. I merely try to make clear what Zheng meant and what he taught, just because you mentioned him.

What skill are you referring to replicate? Mizner or Zheng. Tifang in Yang style TJQ as understood by YCF students and their lineages is mostly a very basic skill that you should practice so you can easily replicate it. It's very useful. Follow the opponent's attacks in such a manner that he loses his balance and push away himself. At the moment he is about to lose his balance, follow up and "fa". Sometimes it can be done easily, sometimes it's harder to do. As always, what you can or should do depends on the situation and on what your opponent does. Beginners can be tricked very easily to make them float, but skilled practitioners mostly care about their root and to maintain zhongding always. Then it's harder to do.
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