Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

[windwalker]

The very fact that he's able to move the guy is an indication of lower body being attacked. If the Judo guy could not hold his ground against a one directional Force it might be dangerous for him to try any type of rotation or any other type of force.

A sumo guy would have been a better test

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

Alright,
with all the speculation about Adam Mizner's material I thought I post a video showing Adam's top student Andy Mack doing free Push Hands with German Judoka Herbert Arndt.




Now I know that people will start with "Herbert Arndt has no skill..." but Herbert Arndt is a German National Judo Champion, European Judo Champion and won third place in the Judo World Championship starting in the 100+ kg division.

I am really curious how you guys here rate Andy's performance!!!

Best Aqui

While it's always nice to see a Taiji practitioner training with someone outside of their own school, I personally don't think this particular match accomplished much in terms of proving the effectiveness of his art against others. In fact, I'd say it wasn't fair at all in terms of the format of the exchange. All we are seeing here is a Judo guy being dragged way outside of his comfort zone by going against a Taiji guy under free-step PH rules. (Just imagine what it'd be like if the Taiji guy had to put on a Judo jacket and grapple with the Judo guy under Judo rules!)

I'd be much more interested in seeing what happens when grabbing and attacking the lower body are allowed.

IJF banned all leg grabbing techniques in 2013.

Grappler Kingdom
Published on Feb 6, 2018

2013 was the year when all leg grabbing techniques were banned. IJF wanted to make Judo more attractive, but in this change of rules a lot of beautiful techniques were lost. Take a look at compilation of spectacular techniques that are possibly lost form competitive Judo forever:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrk6fZ9P6a4

Attacking the legs is not illegal in judo, it's just illegal in most big competitions. It's in the gokyo, so it won't disapear.

Now, it's also worth pointing out that while heavy weights in judo in their prime are formidible, senior super heavies are much less so. Masters would be somewhere in between. The lighter weights can still be pretty dangerous in masters, but senior divs get pretty pathetic pretty fast. It's great that they (soon enough we) can get out and participate in one of the four pillars of judo, but it doesn't make one a bad ass.

[C.J.W.]

Thanks for the additional info, Ian.

By attacking the legs I was actually thinking about techniques like foot sweeps and traps, and not necessarily single/double leg type of takedowns.

[marvin8]

Attacking the legs is not illegal in judo, it's just illegal in most big competitions. It's in the gokyo, so it won't disapear.

Now, it's also worth pointing out that while heavy weights in judo in their prime are formidible, senior super heavies are much less so. Masters would be somewhere in between. The lighter weights can still be pretty dangerous in masters, but senior divs get pretty pathetic pretty fast. It's great that they (soon enough we) can get out and participate in one of the four pillars of judo, but it doesn't make one a bad ass.

Yes, I was going to add that leg grabbing, not attacking is banned by IJF rules.

IMO, push hands competition is too limited and doesn't do the art of tai chi justice. The more restricted rules the further it gets away from a martial art (e.g., tai chi).

[windwalker]

"IMO, push hands competition is too limited and doesn't do the art of tai chi justice. The more restricted rules the further it gets away from a martial art (e.g., tai chi)."

Depends on the focus of the Push Hands and what it's used for. To me talking about rulesets and competition kind of misses the point Others May find different

Historically taiji was tested just as any other martial art

[Aqui]

OK guys,

here is Ramzi, another of Mizner's top guys doing free push AND GRAPPLING with a wrestler (leg attacks were allowed):



Maybe this can convince you...

[Aqui]

And another one with Ramzi



Any reasons why this is not a great display of skill?????

[marvin8]

IMO, push hands competition is too limited and doesn't do the art of tai chi justice. The more restricted rules the further it gets away from a martial art (e.g., tai chi).

"Depends on the focus of the Push Hands and what it's used for. To me talking about rulesets and competition kind of misses the point

I gave my opinion/point on restricted rules and tai chi as a martial art. What is your opinion on that point? Or what is the "missed point" you are referring to?

[windwalker]

You mean like something that was developed as a training tool being turned into a competitive venue.

That would be my point. It was really never designed as a standalone only something that would Aid to later on understanding certain skill sets.

The constant clamor for what it does not have or does not do is reflected in original design intent . If one does not understand this, it would seem they've missed the point

[marvin8]

You mean like something that was developed as a training tool being turned into a competitive venue.

That would be my point. It was really never designed as a standalone only something that would Aid to later on understanding certain skill sets.

The constant clamor for what it does not have or does not do is reflected in original design intent . If one does not understand this, it would seem they've missed the point

I understand and agree with your statements.

My opinion/point is the push hands competitions show a limited amount of tai chi skills. There are more skills that may be necessary in a fight/martial art (e.g., kicking, punching, range, distance, timing, positioning, etc.). IMO, tai chi is more than just a limited grappling art.

[marvin8]

As long as we're talking Mizner again, what do y'all think of this

I'd like to see him with the big guy in the other video

This one is a Drill, not a competition.

Fair enough. Can it be used in competition?

I've pulled it off in free push hands against lesser skilled players. Higher skilled folks can respond properly and yield/neutralize in return unless you catch them just right, i.e. a moment when their skill is lesser.

It's just t'i-fang, a fundamental skill of authentic taijiquan. Which is why I'm interested to see what others here think of it.

. . . I don't see the responses as "exagerrated" per se. Though they are highlighted via the method. You can see him instruct the student to use good full body connection in order to make sure the body is acting as a unit, not just an isolated limb. If the limb is isolated on contact then all of the movement occurs in one of the joints, not along the whole "ground path". This quality is what makes it uprooting versus just hurting a limb. The classic way of training receiving energy is more explicit and relies less on the pusher doing it right, I admit. You may or may not be familiar with it. But yes, the partner is "giving it" to him, not resisting, not countering the neutralization, not attempting to save himself in any way.

In live non-cooperative push hands, there are two similar looking situations.

Let's say you're joined up and then the partner puts hand on the middle of your chest and pushes on the obvious centerline which they think should be an easy offbalancing.

In one, you root the incoming push and they push themselves away. Root against root, yours is stronger so you win.

The second, you catch the incoming force, route it to the ground and back, and deliver it back to them, possibly with a little or a lot of your own force added.

Point being they may look very similar externally, but there is a huge difference in the feeling inside the body.

It can occur at any point of contact, though. The training situation shown here is just, in my opinion, a way to practice with training wheels to understand and nurture the feeling.

Next then would be full combat and delivering the same jin through a block/deflect/parry or a direct blow.

IMO, the primary focus of the video was not "use good full body connection in order to make sure the body is acting as a unit, not just an isolated limb." or "root against root" versus "you catch the incoming force, route it to the ground and back, and deliver it back to them." It was about getting to the higher level; "hua and fa become one."

At :12 Adam says, "When we are working on the seven point push exercise there are four basic levels to work on:”

1. Yielding
2. Yield and neutralize (transform)
3. Neutralize, then return (hua, then fa)
4. “Hua and fa become one” (neutralize/transform, issue/release), “No timing break between hua and fa.”

Have you "pulled off" #4 "against lesser skilled players?" If so, what is the "huge difference in the feeling inside the body?"

In #3 and #4, Adam does not mention yielding. IOW, Hua and fa without yielding.

[windwalker]

And another one with Ramzi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i-gLlwhIYQ

Any reasons why this is not a great display of skill?????

The question is what kind? what kind of skill is being displayed. The taiji guy has a grappling back ground among other things
what is it that distinctly makes this any different, along with why are not the reactions the same as in the other clips demoing some
push hands practices. Why isn't the dreaded fa-jin being shown or used, with very small movements controlling a larger one.

off hand I would say its the level of engagement. ie what is being engaged. mind/ body / ect.

Like Adams work, don't quite understand the point that some are trying to make about it.

As a test, it would be better to show that with a unified body, the grappler can not find a point in which to grapple with and gets
bounced out by his own force...there are clips showing this, most where skeptical of it understandably. Not going to post them here...only remarking on what
was posted.

[origami_itto]

IMO, the primary focus of the video was not "use good full body connection in order to make sure the body is acting as a unit, not just an isolated limb."

That was a paraphrase of the instruction given the student between #3 and #4 in order to give a good demonstration.

or "root against root" versus "you catch the incoming force, route it to the ground and back, and deliver it back to them." It was about getting to the higher level; "hua and fa become one."

At :12 Adam says, "When we are working on the seven point push exercise there are four basic levels to work on:”

1. Yielding
2. Yield and neutralize (transform)
3. Neutralize, then return (hua, then fa)
4. “Hua and fa become one” (neutralize/transform, issue/release), “No timing break between hua and fa.”

Have you "pulled off" #4 "against lesser skilled players?" If so, what is the "huge difference in the feeling inside the body?"

In #3 and #4, Adam does not mention yielding. IOW, Hua and fa without yielding.

I don't know what I could add to what I've already said.

[marvin8]

IMO, the primary focus of the video was not "use good full body connection in order to make sure the body is acting as a unit, not just an isolated limb."

That was a paraphrase of the instruction given the student between #3 and #4 in order to give a good demonstration.

#3 starts at 1:24 and #4 starts at 1:54. Edit: Yes at 2:02, I hear Adam give this instruction. However, you are "missing the meat" of the video, which is and the title happens to be, Hua and Fa.

or "root against root" versus "you catch the incoming force, route it to the ground and back, and deliver it back to them." It was about getting to the higher level; "hua and fa become one."

At :12 Adam says, "When we are working on the seven point push exercise there are four basic levels to work on:”

1. Yielding
2. Yield and neutralize (transform)
3. Neutralize, then return (hua, then fa)
4. “Hua and fa become one” (neutralize/transform, issue/release), “No timing break between hua and fa.”

Have you "pulled off" #4 "against lesser skilled players?" If so, what is the "huge difference in the feeling inside the body?"

In #3 and #4, Adam does not mention yielding. IOW, Hua and fa without yielding.

I don't know what I could add to what I've already said.

I've pulled it off in free push hands against lesser skilled players. . . .

It's just t'i-fang, a fundamental skill of authentic taijiquan. Which is why I'm interested to see what others here think of it.

You say,"I've pulled it off. . . . It's just t'i-fang" Which of the 4 levels in the video have you pulled off?

As usual. though, the conversation is focusing on the wrong aspect, semantics, and missing the meat. What do you make of the skill and can you replicate it?

I agree. I have timestamped and transcribed parts of Adam's video you posted. IMO, the meat of the video is “Hua and fa become one” without yielding. Is this the skill you have replicated?

I'm asking about your opinion of and experience with the skill displayed in Sifu Adam's video. The one I posted, "hwa and fa seven point push".

What is your "opinion of and experience with," "Hua and fa become one" without yielding?

[wayne hansen]

None of the versions of 7 point push here show much skill
Even people who don't know these exercises must see the shortcomings