Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

[windwalker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuW4Ufa ... e=youtu.be

20:58

He talks about "iron robe" interesting demo. Some talked about pung jin, and others mentioned “No timing break between hua and fa.”
A good demonstration in a static mode. What ever one thinks of his method, it seems to bring results for those that follow it.
As noted I like a lot of his work....His back ground is quite interesting

It reminds me of some of systema work, would be interested in reading RobP3 thoughts on it should he care to share them.

[marvin8]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuW4Ufa ... e=youtu.be

20:58

He talks about "iron robe" interesting demo. Some talked about pung jin, and others mentioned “No timing break between hua and fa.”
A good demonstration in a static mode. What ever one thinks of his method, it seems to bring results for those that follow it.
As noted I like a lot of his work....His back ground is quite interesting

It reminds me of some of systema work, would be interested in reading RobP3 thoughts on it should he care to share them.

Yes. Regardless of real skill, Adam explains and demonstrates various internal concepts which would be interesting to read a discussion on.

As usual. though, the conversation is focusing on the wrong aspect, semantics, and missing the meat.

I like Adam because he covers various IMA concepts and demonstrates their application outside of push hands, starting from a more realistic range with entry and timing. Having said that, I may not believe everything I see.

If one has criticisms about Adam's presentations—which is fair game, it is more interesting to hear a better explanation, video or have a discussion on the content of the video itself.

some must've watched a different clip,,,ya think

[Bao]

Yes. Regardless of real skill, Adam explains and demonstrates various internal concepts which would be interesting to read a discussion on.

As usual. though, the conversation is focusing on the wrong aspect, semantics, and missing the meat.

Why don't one of you start a new thread then and ask questions about what you want to discuss?
The original OP question was: "I am really curious how you guys here rate Andy's performance." So the discussion you are looking for is far away from the OP to this thread.

[charles]

As long as we're talking Mizner again, what do y'all think of this

I watched the first of the videos of Liu Chengde posted in another recent thread:



Watching that video reminded me that what Mr. Mizner and LCD are demonstrating are very different skills, achieved very different ways, taught very differently. I'm fairly certain that what Mr. Mizner is teaching does not lead to the types of skills demonstrated by LCD. I, personally, am interested in the types of skills LCD demonstrates and not particularly interested in the skills Mr. Mizner is demonstrating. That is not to say that Mr. Mizner does not have skills, they simply aren't the one's I'm all that interested in. But, that's just me.

LCD doesn't offer on-line courses: Mr. Mizner does.

[willie]

As long as we're talking Mizner again, what do y'all think of this

I watched the first of the videos of Liu Chengde posted in another recent thread:



Watching that video reminded me that what Mr. Mizner and LCD are demonstrating are very different skills, achieved very different ways, taught very differently. I'm fairly certain that what Mr. Mizner is teaching does not lead to the types of skills demonstrated by LCD. I, personally, am interested in the types of skills LCD demonstrates and not particularly interested in the skills Mr. Mizner is demonstrating. That is not to say that Mr. Mizner does not have skills, they simply aren't the one's I'm all that interested in. But, that's just me.

LCD doesn't offer on-line courses: Mr. Mizner does.

Adam definitely has skill, but you are correct in saying that it does not lead to the type of more advanced skills of Chen. the applications that I learned from my teacher all fit together like the applications are sharing the core of a Rubik's Cube.

[origami_itto]

What is your "opinion of and experience with," "Hua and fa become one" without yielding?

I haven't experienced it, there is always a separation in what I've felt, though it may be a fraction of a second, they are clearly two parts of one process. I do not understand neutralization without yielding.

I'm more interested in hearing the perspectives of others regarding the skill. Charles says it's easy and nothing he's interested in, everything says he'd like to meet someone who can teach him. What is your experience and opinion.

[everything]

What is your "opinion of and experience with," "Hua and fa become one" without yielding?

I haven't experienced it, there is always a separation in what I've felt, though it may be a fraction of a second, they are clearly two parts of one process. I do not understand neutralization without yielding.

I'm more interested in hearing the perspectives of others regarding the skill. Charles says it's easy and nothing he's interested in, everything says he'd like to meet someone who can teach him. What is your experience and opinion.

Pardon me if you mainly want to hear from marvin8.

I've been thrown and it feels like being thrown. I've been pressed and it felt a little like being launched from a slingshot. But when I was "pushed" I didn't feel any of that. Maybe that was hua/fa.

[charles]

Charles says it's easy and nothing he's interested in

Just to be clear, that's not exactly what I said.

I've pursued the general approach that Mr. Mizner shows and it leads towards the types of skills he shows. I don't see those skills as the pinnacle of the art and my experience has been that that approach doesn't lead towards the pinnacle. It isn't a "Chen" thing, as I've met a Yang style practitioner who had similar sorts of skills as LCD. Also, in my opinion, most "modern" Chen style doesn't lead there either.

[origami_itto]

Fixed your video link so it's watchable.

As long as we're talking Mizner again, what do y'all think of this

I watched the first of the videos of Liu Chengde posted in another recent thread:



Watching that video reminded me that what Mr. Mizner and LCD are demonstrating are very different skills, achieved very different ways, taught very differently. I'm fairly certain that what Mr. Mizner is teaching does not lead to the types of skills demonstrated by LCD. I, personally, am interested in the types of skills LCD demonstrates and not particularly interested in the skills Mr. Mizner is demonstrating. That is not to say that Mr. Mizner does not have skills, they simply aren't the one's I'm all that interested in. But, that's just me.

LCD doesn't offer on-line courses: Mr. Mizner does.

Adam definitely has skill, but you are correct in saying that it does not lead to the type of more advanced skills of Chen. the applications that I learned from my teacher all fit together like the applications are sharing the core of a Rubik's Cube.

[origami_itto]

What is your "opinion of and experience with," "Hua and fa become one" without yielding?

I haven't experienced it, there is always a separation in what I've felt, though it may be a fraction of a second, they are clearly two parts of one process. I do not understand neutralization without yielding.

I'm more interested in hearing the perspectives of others regarding the skill. Charles says it's easy and nothing he's interested in, everything says he'd like to meet someone who can teach him. What is your experience and opinion.

Pardon me if you mainly want to hear from marvin8.

I've been thrown and it feels like being thrown. I've been pressed and it felt a little like being launched from a slingshot. But when I was "pushed" I didn't feel any of that. Maybe that was hua/fa.

What I'm talking about, specifically, is where your partner thinks they have a good line and they push, hand flat on the chest for example. You catch their force and return it with interest and they go away or crumple depending on how well they deal with it. Less a push than a counterpush though that still misses the mark, imho.

None of the versions of 7 point push here show much skill
Even people who don't know these exercises must see the shortcomings

I would very much be interested in seeing examples of this skillfull version, perhaps with yourself as a demonstrator.

[willie]

Charles says it's easy and nothing he's interested in

Just to be clear, that's not exactly what I said.

I've pursued the general approach that Mr. Mizner shows and it leads towards the types of skills he shows. I don't see those skills as the pinnacle of the art and my experience has been that that approach doesn't lead towards the pinnacle. It isn't a "Chen" thing, as I've met a Yang style practitioner who had similar sorts of skills as LCD. Also, in my opinion, most "modern" Chen style doesn't lead there either.

There is no Yang style practitioners with similar skills. YLC probably did though.
Adam's art is good because it is a very user friendly art. It is not the pinnacle of tai chi, But so very few practitioners will ever acquire the highest levels anyway.
Look at the ages of some of their recent fighters 18?, 20's? It takes a lot longer then that to acquire high level skills in tai chi.

[RobP3]

Charles says it's easy and nothing he's interested in

Just to be clear, that's not exactly what I said.

I've pursued the general approach that Mr. Mizner shows and it leads towards the types of skills he shows. I don't see those skills as the pinnacle of the art and my experience has been that that approach doesn't lead towards the pinnacle. It isn't a "Chen" thing, as I've met a Yang style practitioner who had similar sorts of skills as LCD. Also, in my opinion, most "modern" Chen style doesn't lead there either.

There is no Yang style practitioners with similar skills. YLC probably did though.
Adam's art is good because it is a very user friendly art. It is not the pinnacle of tai chi, But so very few practitioners will ever acquire the highest levels anyway.
Look at the ages of some of their recent fighters 18?, 20's? It takes a lot longer then that to acquire high level skills in tai chi.

Sorry Willie, do I understand you correctly there? did you really just put Adam on a par with YLC?

[willie]

There is no Yang style practitioners with similar skills. YLC probably did though.
Adam's art is good because it is a very user friendly art. It is not the pinnacle of tai chi, But so very few practitioners will ever acquire the highest levels anyway.
Look at the ages of some of their recent fighters 18?, 20's? It takes a lot longer then that to acquire high level skills in tai chi.

Sorry Willie, do I understand you correctly there? did you really just put Adam on a par with YLC?

that's not what I meant. And of course not! Yang was Chen, Adam is not.

[Rhen]

Someone said Adam used to get really high and talked to yang Luchan's ghost, and that is how he got transmission of the Yang Shouhou form.

[Bao]

I've pursued the general approach that Mr. Mizner shows and it leads towards the types of skills he shows. I don't see those skills as the pinnacle of the art and my experience has been that that approach doesn't lead towards the pinnacle. It isn't a "Chen" thing, as I've met a Yang style practitioner who had similar sorts of skills as LCD. Also, in my opinion, most "modern" Chen style doesn't lead there either.

I do agree to most of this. What I like with what LCD shows is not much a matter of a certain skill set, but more his focus on controlling the opponent. My favourite teacher had a similar philosophy. He thought it rather pointless to bounce people away, but rather he would guide them down on the floor close to him. If you offered your hand to him as striking at him, one of his favourite strategies was to use one hand with a rather light contact to make you just sit on ground next to him. There he could easily reach your head with his fist. It always looked and felt effortless and he always had complete control of where he would make the other fellow "sit". What I don't like with Adam's strategy and many similar teachers is that they just bounce off or bounce away people mostly without any finishing strategy in mind. Adam is still better than many others, but the focus on bouncing people away is not the best attitude to bring with you in a real situation.

There is no Yang style practitioners with similar skills. YLC probably did though.

I see a lot of skills in LCD, so exactly what skills or what particular skill set are you referring to?