Aqui wrote:Hey Jamie,
TBH I had a similar thought (concerning the age) when I first saw the video, but Herbert Arndt won his titles within the last 2 years and is currently competing.
The weight, well that's how heavyweight Judo guys look, nothing to complain about!
For me the weight is clearly a sign for Andy's skill, Arndt outweighs him by at least 100 pounds.
Best,
Aqui
oragami_itto wrote:You'll need a little more specific citation than "a book CMC and Robert Smith" wrote together, lol. I would definitely read it myself to see what you mean.
I see his descriptions in treatise seven to be distinct and simple.
t'i fang - receive an attack directly, neutralize/absorb it, and then release it back into the opponent.
t'i chin - use a push and pull or withdraw and push to sever the root
I'm asking about your opinion of and experience with the skill displayed in Sifu Adam's video. The one I posted, "hwa and fa seven point push".
Question 6: "By alternation of the force of pulling and
pushing, the root is severed and the object is quickly toppled,
without a doubt." Is that t'i chin?
Answer: To lift up is t'i chin, but this is not the power
capable of raising up an opponent. That power comes by
first pulling and then pushing, meaning that you first
give way before you attain it. It is similar to squatting
down first to get the power for jumping up. In physics,
the equation is Force x Speed x Time = Energy.
marvin8 wrote:oragami_itto wrote:You'll need a little more specific citation than "a book CMC and Robert Smith" wrote together, lol. I would definitely read it myself to see what you mean.
I see his descriptions in treatise seven to be distinct and simple.
t'i fang - receive an attack directly, neutralize/absorb it, and then release it back into the opponent.
t'i chin - use a push and pull or withdraw and push to sever the root
I'm asking about your opinion of and experience with the skill displayed in Sifu Adam's video. The one I posted, "hwa and fa seven point push".
To my understanding (?) of Thirteen Treatises:
t'i fang — lifting release technique
t'i chin (jin) — "to lift up"
T'i chin is the lifting energy within the t'i fang technique.
From Thirteen Treatises, page 207:Question 6: "By alternation of the force of pulling and
pushing, the root is severed and the object is quickly toppled,
without a doubt." Is that t'i chin?
Answer: To lift up is t'i chin, but this is not the power
capable of raising up an opponent. That power comes by
first pulling and then pushing, meaning that you first
give way before you attain it. It is similar to squatting
down first to get the power for jumping up. In physics,
the equation is Force x Speed x Time = Energy.
Adam does hua (Transforming/Neutralising) and fa (Releasing/Issuing), which t'i fang is a unique, uprooting subset that includes lifting. Adam demonstrates a higher level, when hua and fa "become one" at the point of contact.
This is the primary reason to use
the term "T'ai Chi" to name this martial art, for it
means to cause the attacking force to dissolve in empti-
ness. When the opponent realizes that he has failed, his
only option is to withdraw and try to escape. During the
opponent's withdrawal of his attacking force, my abdo-
men, which has absorbed and stored the force of his at-
tack, uses this power to attack his retreat. This response
is what the Classics refer to as t'i-fang. Fang means to
release. I then become a circle again. The opponent will
be at a loss as to what he can do and is thrown out a
great distance.
page 54 wrote:T'ai Chi Ch'uan is also excellent in its application of
t'i chin (uprooting strength). Uprooting can cause an op-
ponent's feet to leave the ground, resulting in his fall.
The Classics say, "By alternating the force of pulling and
pushing, the root is severed and the object is quickly
toppled without a doubt."
oragami_itto wrote:T'i-fang, according to Cheng Man Ching... is hua and fa. Ref Treatise Seven: Strength and Physics in Cheng Tzu's 13 Chapters (p48-49 in the Ben Lo translation).
oragami_itto wrote:It may just be my poor understanding, but these passages do not seem to be describing the same thing and they're mentioned over ten pages apart, always separately, even in the questions at the end (which don't seem to shed much light on this)This is the primary reason to use
the term "T'ai Chi" to name this martial art, for it
means to cause the attacking force to dissolve in empti-
ness. When the opponent realizes that he has failed, his
only option is to withdraw and try to escape. During the
opponent's withdrawal of his attacking force, my abdo-
men, which has absorbed and stored the force of his at-
tack, uses this power to attack his retreat. This response
is what the Classics refer to as t'i-fang. Fang means to
release. I then become a circle again. The opponent will
be at a loss as to what he can do and is thrown out a
great distance.page 54 wrote:T'ai Chi Ch'uan is also excellent in its application of
t'i chin (uprooting strength). Uprooting can cause an op-
ponent's feet to leave the ground, resulting in his fall.
The Classics say, "By alternating the force of pulling and
pushing, the root is severed and the object is quickly
toppled without a doubt."
T'i Fang = receive and release (force)
T'i Chin = pull and push (to sever root)
I don't speak Chinese, but perhaps the T'i in T'i Fang and the T'i in T'i Chin are different?
Apparently it can mean lift or extract, let out, mention? To me the text seems very clearly to be talking about two very different skills. T'i Fang is a passive response that occurs when conditions are right, while T'i Chin is an active process that seeks to create a condition.
Question 6: "By alternation of the force of pulling and pushing, the root is severed and the object is quickly toppled, without a doubt." Is that t'i chin?
Answer: To lift up is t'i chin, but this is not the power capable of raising up an opponent. That power comes by first pulling and then pushing, meaning that you first give way before you attain it. It is similar to squatting down first to get the power for jumping up. In physics, the equation is Force x Speed x Time = Energy.
"To lift up is t'i chin, but this (t'i chin) is not the power capable of raising up an opponent. That power (capable of raising up an opponent) comes first by pulling then pushing. "
Question 3: "Attract to emptiness, absorb, and discharge;
attach (chan, lien, t'ieh, sui) without tiu ting (losing) the
attachment." Does "absorb" mean to store up the energy
and then release and what does "without tiu ting (losing)
the attachment" mean?
Answer: This is also explained by ti fang. Tiu is really
disconnecting. Ting means contrary force. These two
words are contrary to lien and sui. Because you have
yourself, you cannot give yourself up to follow others.
marvin8 wrote:Question 6: "By alternation of the force of pulling and pushing, the root is severed and the object is quickly toppled, without a doubt." Is that t'i chin?
oragami_itto wrote:"To lift up is t'i chin, but this (t'i chin) is not the power capable of raising up an opponent. That power (capable of raising up an opponent) comes first by pulling then pushing, meaning that you first give way before you attain it "
That's how I'm reading that and it's very circular. No where does it blatantly say "it is not" as you suggested. I understand it as t'i chin cuts the root causing a raising of the opponent, then fa chin topples them.
oragami_itto wrote:There is a difference between raising internally and raising externally, here. The t'i chin is the internal raising, the sort of floatiness that comes from the severed root, which is a prerequisite condition for the external raising, i.e. losing contact with the ground. Neither is necessarily part of t'i fang, because you can absorb and release without severing the root which would cause more of the force to go into the opponent versus moving their body.
oragami_itto wrote:p216 gives more detail, kindaQuestion 3: "Attract to emptiness, absorb, and discharge;
attach (chan, lien, t'ieh, sui) without tiu ting (losing) the
attachment." Does "absorb" mean to store up the energy
and then release and what does "without tiu ting (losing)
the attachment" mean?
Answer: This is also explained by ti fang. Tiu is really
disconnecting. Ting means contrary force. These two
words are contrary to lien and sui. Because you have
yourself, you cannot give yourself up to follow others.
There it is clearly saying that ti fang is the absorbing and releasing, completely different thing than severing root.
Robert Chuckrow wrote:T’i Fang
The T’ai Chi Ch’uan uproot involves a technique of energy release termed t’i
fang. T’i fang employs a subtle neutralization in addition to the main neutralization
just described. T’i fang involves eliciting a minute resistance on the part
of the attacker and then neutralizing that resistance. Once the attacker feels himself
falling forward, in addition to pressing the ground with the toes of his forward
foot, he will attempt to lean on you to regain his balance. Ideally, you will
allow him to exert a small force on you, and, just before he regains his balance,
you will let up slightly, causing him to lose his balance again. This time, however,
it is different because now you are in control of his balance and have mobilized
intrinsic energy for a push.
The t’i fang accomplishes a number of purposes:
1. It causes the attacker to involuntarily exert a slight force on you during
the push, making it harder for him to neutralize.
2. It provides a subtle test that fine-tunes the magnitude, timing, and
direction of your push.
3. It increases the attacker’s confusion by nullifying his repeated attempts
to regain balance. He will tend to repeat the same gross movement to
regain balance as he did the first time even though his balance is not as
far off as he experiences it to be or as it was just after the first neutralization.
This sets him up for a much more effective push.
4. Since you are in control of the attacker, the direction of the push need
not be opposite to the original direction of attack.
5. It gives you a chance to practice sensing the attacker’s balance under
controlled conditions.
I note here that Cheng Man-ch’ing told us that there should be three pushes. I
take his words to mean that there is one main neutralization of the opponent’s
initial attack and two subsequent minor neutralizations for fine tuning.
The t’i fang is a method of controlling the opponent’s balance and of fine
tuning that control so that, on the final push, the opponent is exactly in unstable
equilibrium (minimum force).
Eventually, the neutralization occurs over a very short amount of time—only
that required for the attacker to experience his own imbalance. When the neutralization
occurs, the attacker adjusts by exerting a force on the floor with his forward
foot to keep from falling forward. The defender responds almost
immediately, so that the attacker hardly gets off balance. However, the attacker’s
reaction on the floor is based on an expectation of needing to exert the full force
required to keep himself from falling. Because everything happens so fast, the
attacker cannot release the force he is exerting with his forward foot fast enough.
Thus he over-reacts with an excessive force to an extremely short-lived imbalance.
This causes him to be uprooted. The job of the T’ai Chi Ch’uan practitioner is to
become so highly attuned to the opponent’s imbalance and his reaction to that
imbalance, that the practitioner can take full advantage of it by pushing at exactly
the best time and in the best direction. Practice over a long period of time, with
conscious understanding of the underlying principles, is of paramount importance.
oragami_itto wrote:You'll need a little more specific citation than "a book CMC and Robert Smith" wrote together, lol. I would definitely read it myself to see what you mean.
Bao wrote:oragami_itto wrote:You'll need a little more specific citation than "a book CMC and Robert Smith" wrote together, lol. I would definitely read it myself to see what you mean.
I said that I didn't remember which one. If you are interested you can easily google and find all of R W Smith books.
But it's probably this one, if you "look inside" it has a chapter called "uprooting technique: How to perfect it":
T'ai Chi: The "Supreme Ultimate" Exercise for Health, Sport, and Self-Defense
https://www.amazon.com/Tai-Chi-Ultimate ... n-ch%27ing
The Thirteen Chapters is not the best book if you want to understand what CMC taught and how... because this book is a forgery and was not written by CMC.
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