Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

[everything]

it's the setups for "finishing moves" that is the hard part and why these kinds of things are so interesting. it's the same thing in an art like judo but judo doesn't have anything so "mysterious".

killing is mostly done by people with no or limited MA training, mostly with a weapon. so if we want to worry about that, we need weapons. taken farther, maybe we need bunkers. or at least we need a good job, health insurance, etc. taken far enough, you know random violence is not the main threat to your health and well being if you live in a "rich" country. so most of this bullshit can be filed under "adolescent male superhero comic book fantasy". well, even this hua/fa can be filed under that category, too, but at least it's interesting in the sense of "art".

[Interloper]

Do you mean like the sensation of what you've outlined....you do understand that one can only feel their own force ?


The test for what you've outlined is to cause an inanimate object to behave in the same way with the forces as you've outlined applied

Manipulating another's structure, through the joints and to the center of gravity, is not such an esoteric thing. The challenge is in going beyond the basic mechanical alignments and being able to control that center with soft tissue, breath and subtle direction of force.

The human body reacts and responds to stimulation on a non-cognitive level, and seeks to adjust to force it senses, but there is also a genuine mechanical manipulation of a person's structure that comes from being able to provide and direct the full force of a unified body structure, against a body that works in discrete sets of muscles and joints acting in chains, utilizing "pieces" of the body at a time.
If, for example, such an opponent shoves you and you absorb it at the point of contact and redirect his force to the ground, he will pitch forward because he has overshot his center and loses balance. If he runs into you and you propel through his structure to his center of gravity, either his joints will buckle and his structure will collapse or, if he holds himself rigid, he will bounce back as his joints become compressed and he cannot absorb the force to ground.
You can make this work on other vertebrate animals, too, whether they are aware that they are feeling their own force, or not.

[Trick]

Additional info:
The heavy German Judo guy is also a PHs expert, out of the German CXW camp, even a trainer of a German national PHs team!

Like it very much when info as this chimes in after a long discussion

Very sorry, but in Taiwan, I sleep, when you post, and the New Years festivities keep us busy!
Happy Earth Dog!

I'm in Anhui province so we're on the same time, but yes it's busy times here in east Asia big dinners to attend with a lot of "Ganbei" A happy beginning to a happy year of the dog, 新年快乐

[RobP3]

it's the setups for "finishing moves" that is the hard part and why these kinds of things are so interesting. it's the same thing in an art like judo but judo doesn't have anything so "mysterious".

killing is mostly done by people with no or limited MA training, mostly with a weapon. so if we want to worry about that, we need weapons. taken farther, maybe we need bunkers. or at least we need a good job, health insurance, etc. taken far enough, you know random violence is not the main threat to your health and well being if you live in a "rich" country. so most of this bullshit can be filed under "adolescent male superhero comic book fantasy". well, even this hua/fa can be filed under that category, too, but at least it's interesting in the sense of "art".

Yep, that's a typical excuse. Unfortunately for people who have to deal with violence for a living, or even just on a regular basis due to other factors, it is way beyond "adolescent male superhero comic book fantasy". You know, the sort of people you call upon when you get into difficulties.

[Trick]

it's the setups for "finishing moves" that is the hard part and why these kinds of things are so interesting. it's the same thing in an art like judo but judo doesn't have anything so "mysterious".

killing is mostly done by people with no or limited MA training, mostly with a weapon. so if we want to worry about that, we need weapons. taken farther, maybe we need bunkers. or at least we need a good job, health insurance, etc. taken far enough, you know random violence is not the main threat to your health and well being if you live in a "rich" country. so most of this bullshit can be filed under "adolescent male superhero comic book fantasy". well, even this hua/fa can be filed under that category, too, but at least it's interesting in the sense of "art".

Yep, that's a typical excuse. Unfortunately for people who have to deal with violence for a living, or even just on a regular basis due to other factors, it is way beyond "adolescent male superhero comic book fantasy". You know, the sort of people you call upon when you get into difficulties.

That "sort of people"(police?) always have some kind of weapon at hand to be used if the going get tough, but in some countries in for example the EU the Force are to wait in the longes before they pull that tool and thus often get overwhelmed, and in other countries (US?) police might be to trigger happy.....how to do combat the "right" way is not an easy question...it would be good if we had some guy from Krypton to take care of things

[Bao]

presumably all have their own reasons for their practices...

Very true.

Though... there are people who look for certain aspects of an art but have a hard time finding it. I like discussion boards, chats and FB groups for the reason that they give people a possibility to search, find, ask, discuss and eventually find what suits them, find what they are searching for. If we are all quite and don't express our opinions, then most of what is left to find is what marketing tells people. Openness is a good thing, discussion and even arguing have value as well. All of this shit helps people who are sincere but have trouble finding what they want. So why shut up and be quiet if it can help?

[willie]

Do you mean like the sensation of what you've outlined....you do understand that one can only feel their own force ?


The test for what you've outlined is to cause an inanimate object to behave in the same way with the forces as you've outlined applied

Manipulating another's structure, through the joints and to the center of gravity, is not such an esoteric thing. The challenge is in going beyond the basic mechanical alignments and being able to control that center with soft tissue, breath and subtle direction of force.

The human body reacts and responds to stimulation on a non-cognitive level, and seeks to adjust to force it senses, but there is also a genuine mechanical manipulation of a person's structure that comes from being able to provide and direct the full force of a unified body structure, against a body that works in discrete sets of muscles and joints acting in chains, utilizing "pieces" of the body at a time.
If, for example, such an opponent shoves you and you absorb it at the point of contact and redirect his force to the ground, he will pitch forward because he has overshot his center and loses balance. If he runs into you and you propel through his structure to his center of gravity, either his joints will buckle and his structure will collapse or, if he holds himself rigid, he will bounce back as his joints become compressed and he cannot absorb the force to ground.
You can make this work on other vertebrate animals, too, whether they are aware that they are feeling their own force, or not.

Hi interlooper, I like your writing style, Well done!
There's much more to it though. Your writing, along with most others seems to depend on a separation of Yin and Yang in not only the body, but the entire
situation. To try to clarify what I mean, it's the age old saying, "when he's yang, I'm yin" this is only a very small view of the art and is more along the lines
of common Yang stylists. Of-coarse this can be the case in either Chen or Yang, But also a level that doesn't rely on either. This level makes the opponent
irrelevant. The yin and yang are self contained in one instead. Just like the polarities inside a electric motor. The field changes from north to south pole.
So changing the dantian back and forth from Yin/yang to yang/yin and back again. Of-coarse this is just an analogy.
In this video you can clearly see that Chen Chen is polarizing the dantian and loading the bows to strike. He is creating yin and yang which is independent of the situation.

[Interloper]

There's much more to it though. Your writing, along with most others seems to depend on a separation of Yin and Yang in not only the body, but the entire
situation. To try to clarify what I mean, it's the age old saying, "when he's yang, I'm yin" this is only a very small view of the art and is more along the lines
of common Yang stylists. Of-coarse this can be the case in either Chen or Yang, But also a level that doesn't rely on either. This level makes the opponent
irrelevant. The yin and yang are self contained in one instead. Just like the polarities inside a electric motor. The field changes from north to south pole.
So changing the dantian back and forth from Yin/yang to yang/yin and back again. Of-coarse this is just an analogy.
In this video you can clearly see that Chen Chen is polarizing the dantian and loading the bows to strike. He is creating yin and yang which is independent of the situation.

Thanks for the video, Willie. Wow. Huge amount of winding/spiralling force and kai-he, and nice seques and transitions of Yin and Yang. Yes, there definitely is much more to it than I was setting out; my intention was to keep it basic to make the point I wanted to make regarding the reality of actual bio-mechanics being at play in what we do, not just the directing of mind. That's why I "assumed" an opponent with no "internal" training. It's tempting to jump down the rabbit hole of what this stuff is, and where it takes us, but I am not qualified to write a book on it, yet.

In the arts I practice, we are constantly adjusting the "neutral" because nothing around or within us is ever static. There is always change, and with change comes the constant reharmonizing of Yin and Yang -- within ourselves in our solo practices (microcosmic orbit is a good starting point for understanding this energy cycle, IME), and then when in contact with a partner or opponent.

There are concentric rings spheres-within-spheres, and layers, all of which are Yin and Yang, starting with the Yin and Yang of maintaining our neutral within, and advancing to maintaining that Yin and Yang when we feel ourselves being contacted by an opponent, and the Yin and Yang of martial engagement, utilizing muscles and tissues and their mechanical qualities (e.g. condensing, expanding, drawing, propelling...) and how we use them at the point of contact.

[BruceP]

it's the setups for "finishing moves" that is the hard part and why these kinds of things are so interesting. it's the same thing in an art like judo but judo doesn't have anything so "mysterious".

killing is mostly done by people with no or limited MA training, mostly with a weapon. so if we want to worry about that, we need weapons. taken farther, maybe we need bunkers. or at least we need a good job, health insurance, etc. taken far enough, you know random violence is not the main threat to your health and well being if you live in a "rich" country. so most of this bullshit can be filed under "adolescent male superhero comic book fantasy". well, even this hua/fa can be filed under that category, too, but at least it's interesting in the sense of "art".

I've trained 'martial art' with lots of individuals and a few groups that work with clients who are/were either brain injured, had life-long developmental issues, former drug addicts with self-control problems, etc. They work one-on-one with their clients or within health care institutions (hospitals, psych-wards...).

Those people can't use weapons or 'deadly force' when their clients/patients have episodic meltdowns and the like. Their personal safety is at risk every time they punch the clock and the dangers are very real and present.

No delusions or fantasies influence their reasons for 'training'. They know when someone's full of shit regards practical martial art.

That's why I don't think mma or other sport combat is real fighting. Real fighting is having to fight while not wanting to fight.

[Giles]

Real fighting is having to fight while not wanting to fight.

That is very good, Bruce. Thank you.

[everything]

it's the setups for "finishing moves" that is the hard part and why these kinds of things are so interesting. it's the same thing in an art like judo but judo doesn't have anything so "mysterious".

killing is mostly done by people with no or limited MA training, mostly with a weapon. so if we want to worry about that, we need weapons. taken farther, maybe we need bunkers. or at least we need a good job, health insurance, etc. taken far enough, you know random violence is not the main threat to your health and well being if you live in a "rich" country. so most of this bullshit can be filed under "adolescent male superhero comic book fantasy". well, even this hua/fa can be filed under that category, too, but at least it's interesting in the sense of "art".

I've trained 'martial art' with lots of individuals and a few groups that work with clients who are/were either brain injured, had life-long developmental issues, former drug addicts with self-control problems, etc. They work one-on-one with their clients or within health care institutions (hospitals, psych-wards...).

Those people can't use weapons or 'deadly force' when their clients/patients have episodic meltdowns and the like. Their personal safety is at risk every time they punch the clock and the dangers are very real and present.



No delusions or fantasies influence their reasons for 'training'. They know when someone's full of shit regards practical martial art.

That's why I don't think mma or other sport combat is real fighting. Real fighting is having to fight while not wanting to fight.

Edit: was responding below to robp3's comments about the people doing dangerous stuff. For this case doing "finishing moves" is obviously not a great idea either.

That's fine for those low % of people in these high risk areas. For everyone else (the vast vast vast vast majority of people), spending on your time learning "finishing moves" is a colossal waste of time.

I'm not against martial arts, I'm just saying this mysterious hua/fa stuff is a lot more interesting than people seem to think.

[RobP3]

I'm not against martial arts, I'm just saying this mysterious hua/fa stuff is a lot more interesting than people seem to think.

And earlier you said "this bullshit can be filed under "adolescent male superhero comic book fantasy". Safe and secure in the knowledge that you can rely on other people to protect you and yours.

I get that people train for health, so do I most of the time. I don't see "finishing moves" as anything special, we don't train them in the way you would seem to think, in any case. There is certainly no machismo involved. As many of the people who train with us are involved in the unpleasant things some like to pretend don't happen, we work to leave the fantasy out of it too. In contrast to the strange world of people wanting mysterious powers and flocking to anyone who affects the ""right kind" of persona and can perform some MA party tricks

[Trick]

I guess that mostly if the "MA party tricksters" will probably never really end up in the "unpleasant things" situation mostly because their mindset is not geared toward fighting and confrontation, the risk is of course always there for anbody whether you're a stamp collector or a Taiji trickster..... I tend to think if fighting is on ones mind then the fight will come sooner or later

[RobP3]

I guess that mostly if the "MA party tricksters" will probably never really end up in the "unpleasant things" situation mostly because their mindset is not geared toward fighting and confrontation, the risk is of course always there for anbody whether you're a stamp collector or a Taiji trickster..... I tend to think if fighting is on ones mind then the fight will come sooner or later

Well it's always easy to find a fight, but does that mean that everyone who does martial arts is looking for a fight?

My experience with "tricksters" is they avoid any kind of uncomfortable situation by working within their own construct as much as they can. We see the results when they are forced outside of that construct on numerous clips

[Trick]

the strange world of people wanting mysterious powers and flocking to anyone who affects the ""right kind" of persona and can perform some MA party tricks

I think them who are irritated by this mysterious world of party tricksters once actually where themselves attracted to it by stories of old masters with just mysterious powers but after a while felt cheated and instead of trying to find the "right" Taiji for them they left it completely